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We can use this page as a resource to get us started. - - - I was struck during the discussions around the net and on TV about Terri Schiavo by the divergence of views on the meaning of suffering. For secularists, it almost seems that once a life becomes unproductive in a cultural sense, it is of little value and so one has every right to want to end it. This mentality opens the door to euthanasia and perhaps even suicide. Following the approach outlined on this thread, wherein we examined four perspectives on life, we can easily note differences between how suffering is viewed at the positivist, philosophic, theistic, and theotic levels. The link to the little essay I posted above would be from the theotic vantage point, which thoroughly trans-values the other perspectives to the extent that suffering and even death have become, in Christ, a means to encounter God. Without denying what can be affirmed in other perspectives, only Christianity, it seems, is able to completely redeem suffering -- even the most nauseous self-inflicted kinds. I will have more to say about all this, and how God ministers through people who are suffering -- even, perhaps, some who are in comatose and vegetative states. Let's hear from others, now, however. What is your response to the essay? Your thoughts on suffering and meaning? | |||
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It may very well be that when one is in a comatose or even a persistent vegetative state, they are very much awake in a spiritual realm that permits them unique services to the human race precisely because they are still alive in the body as well. I'm not advocating against advanced directives that withdraw expensive life support systems, only noting something that secularists never consider. For them, when one can no longer enjoy "American Idol" or "do something," then there's no point in living or sustaining life. That's such a narrow view in the light of the Christian theotic perspective, however. Two vignettes, the first from a woman who came to visit with me years ago. She reported being visited by an angel in her dreams one night and asked if she would be willing to assist in God's work around the world. She consented, and reported than during the months to follow, she was frequently summoned by the angel to go to one place or another to assist people in dire straights. She felt like she must have been bi-locating during those times, for she was certain that she experienced physical contact with others, and she had vivid memories of the situations she was called to. Once she was simply consoling Chinese children in a cave somewhere overseas, while a fierce battle raged outside the cave. While it was tempting to re-frame it all as vivid dreaming, I chose to simply let her tell her story without analyzing it, and she appreciated my taking her seriously. I never saw her again, but I wondered . . . Another is from one of those "Believe it or not" episodes on a TV program. It was a story of a young girl walking home from school across the plains in Montana when a fierce cold front moved in, bringing a fierce wind, sleet and snow. She began to run to hurry home, as she didn't even have a jacket. Upon climbing over a barbed wire fence, she hooked her skirt, fell, and hit her head on a rock, knocking her unconscious. Soon after, she was greeted by an elderly woman who covered her with a blanket and spoke to her consolingly. When, hours later, help finally arrived, she was unconscious, but amazingly unaffected by the cold and snow. She asked about the woman and was told that no one had been with her. A few days later, when visiting her grandmother in the nursing home, she saw the woman lying in a bed. She asked about her and was told that the woman had been comatose for several weeks and wasn't expected to live much longer. What to make of all this? Is it true? How do I know. What I believe, however, is that it is possible for us to serve God in ways we cannot begin to fathom, even when we are suffering and disabled. That is why it is best to view human life as sacred from conception to death, and to never judge a life as "worthless" just because it isn't productive in the culture. | ||||
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For them, when one can no longer enjoy "American Idol" or "do something," then there's no point in living or sustaining life. That is why it is best to view human life as sacred from conception to death, and to never judge a life as "worthless" just because it isn't productive in the culture. Allow me to extend that even further. Whenever you hear of a suicide, assault or murder you know that there goes someone who devalues human life. These acts can't be committed otherwise. The devaluing of human life ultimately results in violence, and the ultimate devaluation is torture or death, but many of us devalue human life regularly in other, less dramatic ways. We devalue it (ourselves in this case) when we judge ourselves not good enough, not smart enough, not pretty enough or whatever. This too is a cancer and it can grow and spread. We devalue human life in schools when we expect less of children, and for one politically correct reason or another, allow them to slip through the system unchallenged because we are afraid of controversy. Frankly, every one of those reality shows devalues human life. Even football, I think, devalues human life. That may be sacrilege to some LSU or Steelers fans I know, but the reality of the sport is a sad and painful one for the participants. It's the modern-day equivalent of the gladiatorial contest. Violent movies are pornographically devaluing of human life (while, in contrast, pornography itself could be thought of as a worship of the body, as crude as it may be sometimes). We even devalue human life when (and surely we think we're being of a higher conscious and highly benevolent) when we lower the value of ourselves in relation to the rest of creation with misguided attitudes such as "Oh, we're just another animal." I believe in treating animals humanely (wouldn't want to treat them, say, like a wolf would which would be wolfly, I suppose). But I've come to recognize that "Oh, we're just another animal" means a contempt for human life to some extent and not just an appreciation for other creatures. It goes without saying that abortion devalues human life, but I'll say it anyway. The scales of life must be balanced and while we continue to devalue human life we will continue to do horrible things to each other. But in a new light, one hopefully can see how this starts at home. We've got to stop devaluing ourselves. There's an ugly price to pay when we do and we are not the only ones who pay it. We have a profound effect on others whether we know it or not. | ||||
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The subject of suffering is important in the context of Christian spirituality. Phil, as you outlined in the introduction there are several types of suffering. The one which attract me is spiritual suffering. In my mind I see two different types of suffering. Here I exclude physical sufffering caused by accident or disease. The first type of suffering I want to talk is suffering inflicted by ourselves by denieng Christ or God as our saviour. For instance in the life of married people if one of the partner spend with another activity in his/her spare time leaving the other partner alone, she or he can think "If he/she loves me he/she would have been with me". This thought can create a feeling of lonliness and consequently the person suffer. Had this person have strong faith in Christ that kind of thought couldn't come in the person's mind. Obviously she/he will ask the person, who spend his/her spare time with other activity, why the person left the other partner alone. There is no space for specualtive thought. Period. This is only tiny example you can add all types of psycological suffering exist in this world. These are a type of suffering comes in the absence of living with Christ The other type of sufering I want to mention is suffering which follow in ones deep spiritual journey. If we are detrmined to follow Jesus Christ one day he come to us and begin his purification process. This purification proces is necessary because Christ can't seat in our body permanently if we are not enough clear. Our junk can only be cleared by Christ or Holy Spirit. What I want to say here is purification process is full of painfull experience. Indifferent from the above example the suffering person who is in the purification process is happy because he knows that he is in the hands of Christ. If the person continue to have strong Faith in Christ, he can give him a glimpse of heaven during the purification process. Typical example of this type of suffering observed among our saints. In conclusion I would say the following statement: Suffering with Christ is Grace but living without Christ is extremly suffering. | ||||
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| <w.c.> |
Something else perhaps to experiment with, at least regards suffering in the more existential sense . . . . See what it's like to stop all meditation and prayer for a few days. When I do this the hypervigilance underlying these otherwise good disciplines is more easily seen. I'd even say this hypervigilance common to all humans is the primary psychological corollary to our fallen nature. And so we're all experiencing this hypervigilance based on the fear endemic to the mortal coil; however, most of our acquired insecurities get imbedded in this larger one and aren't seen, even obscured by our best efforts to mature. There's no trick in this, but since it appears the mind cannot release the mind, there is, at least from my experience, a tendency to guard against losing our trance-inducing preoccupations. | ||
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Suffering with Christ is Grace but living without Christ is extremly suffering. That's what I was getting at in my little essay that I linked to in the point about redemptive vs. non-redemptive suffering. Your point about "dark night" experiences is especially well-taken, I believe. Knowing that those struggles are part of the journey and that they lead to more freedom and growth can help us to bear them more patiently, and grace-fully. See what it's like to stop all meditation and prayer for a few days. When I do this the hypervigilance underlying these otherwise good disciplines is more easily seen. . . I haven't done this in years as it's just not worth it. One minute of that kind of consciousness feels like hell! I will cancel an appointment, or just show up late for a meeting, if the alternative is to miss prayer. OTOH, people who don't pray / meditate regularly often do seem calm, adjusted . . . OK. I know I was, for the most part, for years. I've wondered if regular prayer / meditation doesn't so significantly change the dynamics of psyche and physiology that something of a withdrawal ensues without it . . . like joggers experience when they don't get their run in. William Glasser suggested as much in a book he wrote years ago entitled Positive Addiction. I attended a workshop by him on this topic and had the good fortune of sitting with him and a few others over lunch one day. When I shared with him how I felt without my prayer time, he said he thought it sounded like I had developed such an addiction. His book mentions meditation (of the TM sort) as an example, as well. There's no trick in this, but since it appears the mind cannot release the mind, there is, at least from my experience, a tendency to guard against losing our trance-inducing preoccupations. That's well-said. I recall an old Cuban doctor in family week at the substance abuse treatment center where I worked years ago. His daughter was the patient, and he listened patiently to her pathetic story of cocaine and sexual addiction, heart breaking all the while. He was gentle and supportive, and at the end of the week, when asked what he had learned from the sessions, he said, "I've learned it's important to keep my mind in my self." That's what prayer and meditation makes possible. Without it, the mind only magnifies our suffering through dynamics of repression and projection, as suffering is generally a problem greater than it can resolve with its limited resources. | ||||
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| <w.c.> |
Phil: What I'm referring to probably isn't what you're describing. It is quite possible for the false self to use anything to perpetuate itself given a background of hypervigilance. People trying to heal are often most afraid of just letting themselves be and facing the undisguised pain of the false self, its distortions of genuine longing. So the recommendation is to stop prayer for a few days or a week in order to get a sense of any exiled aspect of self that is being relegated in this way by the particular activity pre-occuping the mind i.e, generating the protective trance state. This recommendation is probably best served, and most safely done, in a counseling relationship, since the distorted longings of the false self often emerge as a significant grief. | ||
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So the recommendation is to stop prayer for a few days or a week in order to get a sense of any exiled aspect of self that is being relegated in this way by the particular activity pre-occuping the mind i.e, generating the protective trance state. I have half a mind to say that one reason I resist meditation (or prayer) is because that false self doesn't want to let go and can rationalize a hundred reasons for not meditating or praying. Alternatively, I could see how breaking out of a regular routine could expose some sore points or weaknesses. On the other hand, give a lot of regard to the idea of "If it ain't broke don't fix it."  | ||||
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| <w.c.> |
It can work either way, Brad. The hypervigilance driving folks from slowing down enough to take up meditation with any consistency can just as easily be the driving force among those who practice daily. Both are attempts by the false self system to protect itself from exposure. | ||
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See what it's like to stop all meditation and prayer for a few days. When I do this the hypervigilance underlying these otherwise good disciplines is more easily seen. w.c, if this message is for me I want you to know that I don't practice prayer or meditation. From the begggining it was not initiated by me, so I can't stop it if I want. I don't set a time for meditation. Meditation/prayer for me is boundless, it has no special time. Neverthless, I need quite time everyday because the integration/purification process needs its own time. During this time the work is done entirely by Holy Spirit, what I'm doing is simply to surrend for the unknown result. Regardless the result I thanks God. I accept with gratitude whatever comes in this process. So, I don't do prayer for special reason. Doing this type of meditation/prayer without any reason is what John of the Cross called infused contemplation. This can't be nurtured by humanbeings, it is solely the work and Grace of God. | ||||
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| <w.c.> |
No Grace, I was referring to something else entirely . . . not the neglect of a relationship, but allowing oneself to just be without having to qualify it in any particular way. Graced contemplation includes that beingness, so it's not, in my experience, a state of hypervigilance, but probably the only means by which the hypervigilance can be transformed. The experiment was recommended just to see what restlessness comes into awareness when we simply quite trying to make ourselves over. | ||
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It can work either way, Brad. I believe you. What you say makes sense, WC. The experiment was recommended just to see what restlessness comes into awareness when we simply quite trying to make ourselves over. You know, there are just so many things in life like that. You have to have some, more than just a little, but not too much. We need a bit of vigilance, hyper or otherwise, to scope out our defects, but staying too long in that mode *is* a defect. | ||||
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This article seemed pertinent to the thread: The Blessed Sounds of Silence By Marc A. Thiessen This is such a rich topic and one that all human beings can relate too. You don't have to be a scholar to talk about suffering or what it might mean or how to use it. Heck, you don't technically have to be religious. | ||||
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That is a good article, Brad, and very relevant to this topic. The Pope was indeed a model when it came to demonstrating how to suffer with dignity and grace. I believe this helped to deepen the loving presence manifest so richly through the years. | ||||
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