Hi, all. I've just finished rereading C. S. Lewis' CHRONICLES OF NARNIA, which I absolutely love. As I was rereading THE LAST BATTLE, in which a donkey, who doesn't think he's very clever, allows himself to be talked into wearing a lion skin and pretending to be Aslan, the Christ figure, I started wondering about this. There was a time in my spiritual development when I thought I had God pretty much figured out, feeling that I could point to a scripture on any number of topics to show exactly what God thought of them. As I continued in my journey, I realized that, while scripture is inspired by God, God is infinitely bigger than the scriptures, and can't be reduced to a given passage or our understanding of the passage. In rereading THE LAST BATTLE, I started to wonder: How do we, knowing that God is bigger than we can possibly comprehend, remain true to who God really is, without letting ourselves be led astray. Can we cling too tightly to our conceptions of God, and fail to miss what new aspect of Himself God is trying to show us? Or can we, like the donkey in the story, be led astray because we realize there's so much we don't know, and therefore trust anyone who speaks with authority? Is the trick to stay true to what feels right to our hearts, and trust that if God wants to make more of Himself real to us than what we've previously known, He'll make our hearts receptive to it? Just some thoughts that have been rolling around in my head as I reread this wonderful series of books, which if you haven't read, I heartily recommend. Y'all have been so quiet that I figured it was time for a discussion starter.

How do we know God is God? I'm not sure this is your question but it is what I think you are asking. I agree that Scripture is inspired by God and that God is at the same time bigger than Scripture, but I also think that God is revealed to us through Scripture. In other words we have to go back to Scripture - the entire experience of God revealed through Scripture; to test our experience of God against the experience of God revealed therein. If what we see as God or how we see God is contrary to God as revealed through Scripture, we may be seeing a donkey... or not but I think at that point we have to seriously wonder. Just my thoughts... what does everyone else think?

At another Internet site I've been involved in a discussion thread with a person who sincerely believes he has been anointed by God to bring others to Him. The problem is, this person's words are filled with hatred. He thinks he has a right to judge and verbally abuse others in the discussion because he claims everything he says is coming directly from God.

From the point of view of almost everyone else in this discussion this person does not represent who God is--yet this person can point to all kinds of OT passages which portray a wrathful, vengeful God.

One other person at this site has defended the verbally abusive self-proclaimed prophet, claiming that since God was insulting its OK for his children to be.

My point is, yes, we must consult Scripture to develop wisdom and discernment--but all of that counts for nothing if our hearts are not filled with a Spirit which manifests itself in love and humility. For the Scripture to have its proper effect we have to leave our egos behind and relinquish our hearts to God's guidance.

For me, the best teacher about the nature of God is in healthy relationships based on respect, generosity, and love.

Bonnie

How do we, knowing that God is bigger than we can possibly comprehend, remain true to who God really is, without letting ourselves be led astray. Can we cling too tightly to our conceptions of God, and fail to miss what new aspect of Himself God is trying to show us? Or can we, like the donkey in the story, be led astray because we realize there's so much we don't know, and therefore trust anyone who speaks with authority? Is the trick to stay true to what feels right to our hearts, and trust that if God wants to make more of Himself real to us than what we've previously known, He'll make our hearts receptive to it?

This is a great thread, Peggy! Thanks for starting it, and for the responses by Wanda and Bonnie.

It's also very relevant in this day and age as Christianity encounters other world religions and philosophies, and as this encounter shows up in our e-mail discussion groups, spam email, discussion forums, and what-not.

My own response and the one I hear most Christian Churches teaching is that God has communicated to us because God wants to be known, loved, and in relationship with us. Our Scriptures and the dogmatic forumulations that have been developed through the course of history tell us something about God's revelation, thus providing a kind of "objective standard" to use in evaluating other religious venture.

Unto this end, dogmatic teachings are especially important. I know the term is very unpopular, but that's mostly because it's not properly understood. Dogmatic teachings are distillations of a lot of discernment and wisdom and are given to teach us what is most essential--and what, if neglected, will seriously jeopardize the content and practice of Christian faith. Dogmatic teachings do not propose to say evertyhing there is to say about God, however, only what we can be confident in believing as trustworthy. Among other things, they assert that any assertions made about God are always stammerings and are not to be made into idols. Nevertheless, there is a positive side to dogma in its reassurance that here we have a teaching we can give ourselves over to and be confident of growing in Christ.

One key dogmatic teaching in Christianity is that God's self-revelation ended with Jesus, and no new revelation about God can be added to Christianity after the end of the age of the Apostles. This doesn't mean that we can't continue to deepen and expand on the revelations that we already have. Theology is always doing this. It just means that Jesus was It--God's decisive Word, made manifest! God can't give us anything more than the Word and the gift of the Spirit for those gifts ARE God and not merely symbols of God.

With all this in mind, we can indeed explore the gifts to be found in other world religions, in society, in mythology, etc. But if/when any of these seem to compromise what Scripture and/or dogmatic teachings affirm, an effort ought to be made to understand why this is so. Perhaps the contradiction is only apparent, and not real--as, for example, many would say the teaching on evolution is. Perhaps it is very real and cannot be accepted--as Islam's contention that God had yet another word to give us through Mohammed. This doesn't mean we can't repsect people who choose to follow those beliefs, it only means that we can't go there without seriously compromising something essential to Christian faith.

There is lots of room to investigate, discover, and learn, however. But my recommendation is that before one goes looking around too much at other religious traditions, one must first know one's own.

Hope this helps. Let's keep going.

Phil


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You are right about the dogmatic teaching Phil... they have grown from the study and discernment of God as revealed through Scripture. The problem I think some people have is that they only take a part of the picture and try to make it the whole picture. Using our relationships as an example, if we only take one incident - one contact and from it determine who a person is, we will most likely find ourselves mistaken. The surly store clerk that treated us so rudely this morning, may in fact be a wonderful loving person, who simply was having a bad day. This is gross oversimplification, but this is what I see Bonnie's friend doing. He has based his picture of God on only a part of Scripture. The dogmatic teachings on the other hand come from a much more comprehensive picture - and therefore are more valuable as guides.

"One key dogmatic teaching in Christianity is that God's self-revelation ended with Jesus, and no new revelation about God can be added to Christianity after the end of the age of the Apostles. This doesn't mean that we can't continue to deepen and expand on the revelations that we already have. Theology is always doing this. It just means that Jesus was It--God's decisive Word, made manifest! God can't give us anything more than the Word and the gift of the Spirit for those gifts ARE God and not merely symbols of God."
This is my problem with this whole question and the dogmatic teachings as well. I'm not so sure a new revelation of God cannot be added. If we believe that God's relationship with us is a growing ongoing relationship, to say that he cannot or will not add to our understanding limits God. Fixes him in time. Defines the undefineable. I am not saying that he has but I also cannot say that he will not. When Christ walked among us there were many who did not recognize him - even those closest to him. How can we be so sure then that we would recognize him if he were to walk amongst us today?


[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Wanda ]

This is my problem with this whole question and the dogmatic teachings as well. I'm not so sure a new revelation of God cannot be added. . . I am not saying that he has but I also cannot say that he will not.

I understand your point, Wanda, but when you consider that the Word revealed by Jesus IS God, it would be difficult to understand how God can reveal more than the Word, which is understood to be God's Self-communication. That would be like saying that God can reveal more than God, which is obviously illogical.

Nevertheless, there is a sense in which people can take dogma and use it to confine, and they can even make it into an idol. That's what dogmatism does. Typical human ordeal: we can take anything and pervert it! Maybe that's what bothers you?

But when you consider what dogma is actually affirming, there's no need to be concerned about limitations.
God is love: can we ever stop realizing the depth of this?
God is truth: can we ever really comprehend it all?
God is Mystery: well, that one guarantees that we've room to grow in our understanding.
- and so forth -

When Christ walked among us there were many who did not recognize him - even those closest to him. How can we be so sure then that we would recognize him if he were to walk amongst us today?

Well, he does, in a sense, through his presence in each of us. And we do struggle to recognize that, don't we?

But when Jesus of Nazareth comes again, he will come in glory and I don't there there will be much doubt about what's going on. He won't be like the historical Jesus of 2,000 years ago--probably more like the Being Paul encountered on the road to Damascus. But who really knows about that one? Should be interesting!

Phil

Thank you, Phil... I think I needed to hear that.

This is a very meaningful thread. It could be explored (but not exhausted) from another perspective as one might consider how to balance the kataphatic and apophatic experiences of God in one's life.

From another perspective, to stay with C.S. Lewis, I recall a phrase of his: "wrenched from its context in the whole and swollen to madness in its isolation". This may be part of what is happening in radical fundamentalism, radical progressivism or radical conservatism in any tradition; folks take things out of context, especially historical contexts. Some have said that it is only by going very deeply into one's own tradition that one might discover that we are all drinking from one primal stream.

Religion plays many roles in societies, lending coherence and structure. It may be that for the masses, the vast majority of people, that needs for coherence and structure are primary and, as such, any old religion would be suitable. For these types of people, Buddha or Jesus or Mohammed or Krishna are just titular and symbolic mascots. Religion, to them, is a set of externalized codes, rubrics and dogmas. Its main purpose is, to use the name of an actual Taliban ministry: the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice. Such people would uncritically adopt the mascot of whatever tradition they were born into.

Peggy wrote: How do we, knowing that God is bigger than we can possibly comprehend, remain true to who God really is, without letting ourselves be led astray. Can we cling too tightly to our conceptions of God, and fail to miss what new aspect of Himself God is trying to show us? Or can we, like the donkey in the story, be led astray because we realize there's so much we don't know, and therefore trust anyone who speaks with authority? Is the trick to stay true to what feels right to our hearts, and trust that if God wants to make more of Himself real to us than what we've previously known, He'll make our hearts receptive to it?

And some folks, like Peggy, don't uncritically adopt their ideas of God. They are the salt and the leaven and the yeast and will never outnumber those other seekers who are so easily satisfied with their simple answers to life's complex questions (and Mysteries even!).

There have been other really good responses to these questions and I mostly resonate with them. Ergo, I feel like, at this point, I could best honor and respect the questions Peggy posed above, not by attempting to further answer them intellectually but moreso by recognizing that they might be incorporated into one's daily examen wherein one considers one's response to the first three commandments as they pertain to one's relationship to God, mind and will and heart. How sad that some discontinue the journey and are no longer seeking. You true saintly people will almost always end your day a little unsatisfied --- THAT'S the deer longing for water for, as a good friend pointed out to me: it's the SALT making it thirsty!

Be SALT. Thanks for the depthful reflection. It was really a prayer in the way it was articulated: "Show me your way! Show me Yourself!" resonated throughout. Wow! You WILL be rewarded.

Shalom and namaste,
johnboy