Dawn wrote: He [Christ] is the Way and the Gate in many manners.

Wow Dawn, I feel the energy of your words.

The "way" (odos) has many levels of meaning. When the gospel of John was written, the odos, as seen in Philo, had a mystical meaning as the inner ascent to heaven. In the conversation between Jesus and Thomas in John 14, John's Gospel moves readers toward a vision of general salvation for all believers -- those who have "seen" and those who have not "seen" -- through faith in Jesus.

It is a strange thing when we Protestants (I'm Mennonite), who are taught to have blind faith, start "seeing" another level of meaning by way of mystical prayer, a level of meaning we didn't know to expect.

You know the "dwelling place" metaphor of Teresa�s interior castle comes from John's gospel: "In my Father's house there are many dwelling places..."

- a "being-with" the Son;
- a "being-in" the Spirit;
- a "being-unto" the Father.

Thanks Phil.

I'm not sure why, but I hadn't directly connected Teresa's interior castle and John's "dwelling place" before - what a lovely connection. I am beginning to learn Greek (Koine), but had no idea of the prior mystical meaning of "odos." I had also not thought of myself as one who has "seen" directly with respect to John 14 - but what an insight. A number of years ago I did come to a startling realization that I was a witness to the Risen Christ in a first person sense. Very strange and unexpected indeed. These days I focus on "not-seeing," but it's really just seeing more deeply.

It's interesting, because if I look far enough back into Methodism's roots, I can find precedence for "seeing" (and John Wesley gleaned from practices and writings across the Christian spectrum and himself experienced states like the ecstatic prayer of union)... over time we've lost connection to those roots, though. Have Catholics preserved this connection better than Protestants - if I had been raised a Catholic, would I have been better prepared to understand this prayer? It's a neat thought (though I'm sure there's a huge range of variation within every denomination, of course).

Dawn

Dawn,

...more on seeing. Paul didn't see Jesus in the flesh. Yet he gained profound insight into the meaning of Christ crucified and risen. He was a "man in Christ" by way of ecstatic vision (road to Damascus and third heaven ascent, see Paul the Convert by Alan F. Segal). Visually seeing Jesus in the flesh was no guarantee of "seeing" him in his glory. When Peter said, "You are the Christ," Jesus said, "Flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you."

The thing about Catholic tradition is that it is so big and wide with room for diverse insights. Smaller younger groups tend to seek one defining identity in their struggle for existence. And to institutionalize, you can�t focus on the inner mysteries experienced only by a few.

Narrow esoteric emphasis was the downfall of the so-called �Gnostics:" They emphasized experience over institutionalization, the secret way over public faith. Jesus� conversation with Thomas, in John, can be read as a critique of the path of the Gospel of Thomas in that respect (see Voices of the Mystics by April DeConick).

Ryan,

The biggness and width of the Catholic tradition is very attractive... Protestants share the same roots, but in some ways are like a transplanted cutting, I suppose.

I enjoy your insights and they keep getting me thinking! I suspect that narrowing of focus (to public faith or the secret way, etc.) has always also been related to human cleverness in avoiding those aspects of God's way that we and our culture are less comfortable with. The furthest extents of loving God and loving our neighbor neither reduce to an inner experiential focus nor institutionalize well (rather conveniently for we clever avoiders...) I hope to look up some of the books you reference as they sound interesting.

Dawn

Dawn,

Thanks for your willingness to give such thoughtful consideration to my input. Conversation with you is a joy.

Clever avioders, we. Things that make you go hmmm.

Dawn,

Enjoying your presence and Ryan's here. Mennonites are awsome!

I found Phil the same way as you, Dawn, and mark it as a turning point! Thank you Phil!

I found the John Climacus book and will get back 2U.

caritas, mm <*))))><