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Picture of Katy
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Hello,

I have referred to the term HSP several times on this M.B. and would like to explain just exactly what it is.

Elaine Aron, a pscychologist, and herself an HSP, did about 20 years of research on the trait. She says it is a trait which is usually inherited by about 15 to 20% of the population.

An HSP has a very sensitive nervous system. Some of the signs of this trait are: 1) being aware of subtleties in the environment 2) being affected by other people's moods 3)very sensitive to pain 4)needing to withdraw during busy days. 5) easily overwhelmed by things like bright lights, strong smells, coarse fabrics, sirens , etc. 6) Has a rich, complex inner life. 7) made uncomfortable by loud noises, 8)deeply moved by the arts or music, 9)very conscientious, 10) startles easily, 11) gets rattled when a lot has to be done in a short amount of time, 12)makes it a point to avoid violent movies and TV shows,13) becomes unpleasantly aroused when a lot is going on around them, 14) notices and enjoys delicate or fine scents, tastes, sounds, works of art., 15)was referred to as shy, or "too sensitive" as a child.

I took these from her book. These are not all of them, but I hope you get the idea.

Dr. Aron emphasises the fact that "HSP" is not a disorder, but is a trait. And that HSPs "come in" extroverts as well as introverts.. so, it is not the same thing as shyness.

She also describes the trait as one who has trouble screening out stimuli. And what seems ordinary to others, like loud music or crowds, can be highly stimulating and thus stressful for HSPs.

In more posititive terms, she also says that HSPs are the "royal", or "priestly" advisors. HSPs have great creativity, insight, passion and caring.

There is lots more to it, but I hope I have explained it so you get the general idea.

I do have a whole website about HSPs where you can find more detailed infor. www.holystic.com Also you can go to www.hsperson.com which is Elaine Aron's web site.

Oh, I wanted to tell you too, that I first heard about the trait from a book review in the Catholic Telegraph. I just "happened" to see it in my mothers paper back in 1996 (somewhere around that time) I KNEW that description fit me to the hilt, and it WAS a turning point in my life, and I got the book right away. I had always known I was different, and felt like an alien, and her book finally shed some light on my life long "problem", and like many newly "discovered" HSPs say "I thought I was the only one... what a relief to know that I'm not, and that there is nothing "wrong" with me.

Thanks for letting me share.

Katy
aka hspKaty
:-)

Katy
 
Posts: 538 | Location: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: 17 November 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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She also describes the trait as one who has trouble screening out stimuli. And what seems ordinary to others, like loud music or crowds, can be highly stimulating and thus stressful for HSPs.

I can relate to and verify that. One might wonder if we are born this way or made this way, but if we are this way then that is a quibble.

In more posititive terms, she also says that HSPs are the "royal", or "priestly" advisors. HSPs have great creativity, insight, passion and caring.

I think it's indeed healthy to see it as a gift rather than a curse (which it often is, quite frankly - but you don't get something for nuttin' in this life. Wink
). I can't say I've always thought of it as a gift, or even do so now, although after hearing your view of things it certainly reinforces that notion.

Nice web site too. This in an interesting topic. The interesting thing is that probably our first instinct is to avoid situations that unnerve us and then feel more than a little ashamed about it. We might even then fight back and try to overcome that which we perceive as a weakness. That's obviously, at least to me (and my experience), a bad idea. But an equally bad idea (if not worse) is to blame the "louder" people around us for our pain. I think looking at it from the perspective that you do, Katy, is a good thing.

Although it is reasonable and healthy to regard our situation as a gift and to think of it as special, and even to go a bit overboard about it when first coming to this realization, the only thing I would tend to want to guard against is feeling too "special" or "priestly" lest we morph into a sort of arrogance. That would be just trading one misrepresentation of our selves for another. I'm thinking in particular of this great quote on your web site:

"An alert and active nervous system, therefore, is the greatest gift of Nature, for it is through the nerves that we experience all the pleasures that make life worth living. To be dull-nerved means to be mentally and physically dull - insensitive to the higher phases of life, incapable of deep emotion, love, and force of character....." ~ Paul Bragg

It is, most likely, my oversensitivity that ends up making me dull-nerved both physically and mentally and unable to enter into some of the higher phases of life. How ironic.

Don't consider my critiques a rejection, Katy. I usually respond only to those things that I think are important. I thing the HSP idea is very important and quite real. I guess I'm just mindful of not over-reponding to this realization and this situation, us be sensitive people and all. Wink
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"This in an interesting topic. The interesting thing is that probably our first instinct is to avoid situations that unnerve us and then feel more than a little ashamed about it. We might even then fight back and try to overcome that which we perceive as a weakness. That's obviously, at least to me (and my experience), a bad idea. But an equally bad idea (if not worse) is to blame the "louder" people around us for our pain. I think looking at it from the perspective that you do, Katy, is a good thing."

Brad, So are you an "HSP"? Have you read Elaine Aron's book, (which I think I forgot to give the title) called "The Highly Sensitive Person..."?

I don't think she is "blaming" the louder folk.. however I really do belive, and who can deny that we DO live in a hectic, loud, fast paced society. I don't think that is "normal" Compare "civilization" today to that of, say, a couple hundred years ago.... no automobiles, sirens, Boom boxes, jet airplanes, etc. etc. And sometimes I think of how it must have been in Jesus time... wow.. so quiet up in
those mountains.

Anyway, in a way I DO blame (for lack of a better word, right now) nonHSPs for making so much noise... yikes, I just thougt about those leaf blowers.

As far as HSPs maybe being/getting "arrogant"... well I doubt if many of them do. Actually Dr. Aron does say that in the beginning the HSP may feel special and that's O.K. They have felt soooo "unspecial" all their lives, and so it is a refreshing thought and feeling... but as the HSP grows and learns about his/her trait, we know that it is a gift, just as much as NonHSPs have their special gifts also. But we are no better than others.

Well, before I get my foot in my mouth, I would prefer that you get your info. from the "specialist", Elaine Aron, herself, by reading her book, or reading her web site if you are interested in persuing this.

Thanks for visiting my web site and for your comments.

Katy
 
Posts: 538 | Location: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: 17 November 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Brad,

First of all forgive me if anything I have said, or say that may sound offensive, or arrogant, or just plain doesn't make sense. My state of mind the past few days is such, that I have difficulty concentrating, and remembering, and thinking, and saying things the way I mean.

Now, I just remembered something else very intresting that I just read the other day in Caroline Myss's book, "Why People Don't Heal and How They Can". She gives a list of "signals" that a person experiences when they are becoming "awakended".. moving on up to a higher consciousness. To my surprise she uses the word "sensitivity" a lot. One paragraph says: ...."This frequently includes a heightened sensitivity to energetic or vibrational patterns transmitted by people and environemnts, and all kinds of other sensitivies. She goes on to say that these new sensitivities reflect the emergence a a much deeper intuitive skill. It can develop into the kinds of sensitivity one needs for healing with, say, Therapeutic Touch ... or it may simply assist you in becoming a more insightful individual."

Another sign of awakening, and I quote her again: "A need for more contact with nature or more time alone. A growing dissatisfaction with institutional religion and a need to seek out spirituality. You may also begin to have spiritual experienes, such as deep states of meditaton, a call to a new path in life, or even a Kundalini awakening." (mind you :-)

There are many other "signs" she mentions that are very much the same as the signs of HSP.

Having said that, and depending on what one means by being "better" than another person, I think maybe, just maybe HSPs are a little better, or should I say, more highly evolved. So be it. And as you say and as E. Aron, says, it is a package deal. There is a lot of suffering involved. Maybe our kind of suffering is just a different kind of suffering.... oh well, I better quit while I'm ahead, if I am ahead.

But, Brad, and all you others sensitives here, hey, it's O.K. to know you may be more highly evolved. Jesus knew it. Also the most important thing is L-O-V-E. When all is said and done LOVE is the main thing.

Katy
 
Posts: 538 | Location: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: 17 November 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Very interesting topic, Katy! Thanks for taking me up on starting a thread about it. I think you're calling our attention to a very important topic, and one that's not been well described or understood.

While I can relate to some of the characteristics you mention, I don't to others. Mostly, I think I'm just a plain old, garden-variety introvert/contemplative type who values solitude and silence a great deal. It might be helpful to distinguish more between HSP characteristics and some of the heightened awareness/sensitivities that seem to be awakened in contemplative spirituality. I'll come back to this a little later.

Brad, So are you an "HSP"?

Well, that would explain his aversion to Mac OS X's Aqua interface! Razzer
(Inside joke - terrible digression - mea maxima culpa!)
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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First of all forgive me if anything I have said, or say that may sound offensive, or arrogant, or just plain doesn't make sense. My state of mind the past few days is such, that I have difficulty concentrating, and remembering, and thinking, and saying things the way I mean.

Please don�t apologize just because *I�m* an opinionated person, Katy. Smiler But thanks anyway.

Another sign of awakening, and I quote her again: "A need for more contact with nature or more time alone��

I don�t know if I�m technically �awakening� or not, but I used to listen to the radio most of the day at work. Now I just HAVE to have the silence (at least most of the time). And it�s been in the last two or three years that I couldn�t stand really violent movies � with some exceptions.

I think maybe, just maybe HSPs are a little better, or should I say, more highly evolved. So be it.

Hey, I�m not going to fight that argument too much now that I�ve �come out� as an HSP (although anyone who�s ever debated me online knows that all too well). Wink
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] It might be helpful to distinguish more between HSP characteristics and some of the heightened awareness/sensitivities that seem to be awakened in contemplative spirituality. I'll come back to this a little later.

Brad, So are you an "HSP"?

Well, that would explain his aversion to Mac OS X's Aqua interface! Razzer
(Inside joke - terrible digression - mea maxima culpa!) [/qb]
Phil,

As I was saying in the forum about the Holy Spirt & Kundalini, I think that "HSPs" (highly sensitive people) who have spiritual awakenings can just FEEL the physical aspects of it more than "NonHSPs". I do believe that we have many subtle bodies though. Now, for me, sometimes I can hardly distinguish my emotional pain from physical pain. It's like my whole "self" suffers.
Likewise, NonHSPs can have just as much a spiritual awakening or even kundalini activity as HSPs, the only difference is they don't feel it as much. Is this making any sense?

I meant to say too, that in Caroline Myss's book, where she talks about the "symptoms" of spiritual awakening, she does say that the sensitivites relate to the 7th chakra. So that is another reason I think HSPs are more highly evolved. lol Maybe I'm trying to prove to myself that I am more highly evolved, rather than being just plain neurotic, or worse yet, psychotic.... which, BTW, I was back in 1976 and I would like to tell my story and see what you think, and if it had anything to do with kundalini. Someone told me that maybe it did.

It partly relates to my involvement in the Charismatic movement, which is why I originally posted about this in the Holy Spirit and Kundalini forum.

Thanks Phil for letting me talk. We HSPs don't get to express our views much in the real world. lol


Katy
 
Posts: 538 | Location: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: 17 November 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey, I�m not going to fight that argument too much now that I�ve �come out� as an HSP (although anyone who�s ever debated me online knows that all too well). Wink [/QB][/QUOTE]


Brad, LOL , anyone else want to come out of the closet?

Katy
 
Posts: 538 | Location: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: 17 November 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Brad, So are you an "HSP"? Have you read Elaine Aron's book, (which I think I forgot to give the title) called "The Highly Sensitive Person..."?

Haven�t read that one yet, Katy. But I�ve got this gift certificate from Barnes & Noble burning a hole in my pocket so maybe I�ll check it out.

I don't think she is "blaming" the louder folk

Me neither, but because it�s something I�m prone to do I mentioned it. Didn�t mean to make it sound like I thought she was doing that. But I wouldn�t be that surprised if it was a common thing to happen until we realize that our brains might just be wired a little differently and that it�s not other people�s fault.

�and who can deny that we DO live in a hectic, loud, fast paced society. I don't think that is "normal" Compare "civilization" today to that of, say, a couple hundred years ago.... no automobiles, sirens, Boom boxes, jet airplanes, etc. etc.

I think that�s a really good point. Stress tends to expose our �weaknesses� - or perhaps it�s similar to overloading something, such as shouting into a stethoscope.

Anyway, in a way I DO blame (for lack of a better word, right now) nonHSPs for making so much noise... yikes, I just thougt about those leaf blowers.

Hey, I only mention this stuff in passing because I know it can be true (by personal experience) and have a pretty good inkling that it may be true on a wider scale. If everyone acted and spoke like Mr. Rogers then I would be in heaven. I can sit and watch re-runs of the Bob Ross painting show; and it�s not so much that the art of painting is so interesting (it is), but he�s got just this amazingly smooth, calm voice and demeanor. But some other people grate on me like a table saw cutting through a nail. It�s helpful, at least for me, to keep in mind that the other person isn�t necessarily doing anything wrong.

They have felt soooo "unspecial" all their lives, and so it is a refreshing thought and feeling... but as the HSP grows and learns about his/her trait, we know that it is a gift, just as much as NonHSPs have their special gifts also. But we are no better than others.

I�m good with that as long as the long-term goal is to help people settle in a place that is neither �less than� or �better than�.

Well, before I get my foot in my mouth, I would prefer that you get your info. from the "specialist", Elaine Aron, herself, by reading her book, or reading her web site if you are interested in persuing this.

Will all due respect to Elaine Aron, I find it highly informative to talk with people �second hand� as it were to see what�s happening not just in theory but in real life.
By all means invite her over here if possible and we can have the best of all worlds. Wink I�ll check out the book too if I get a chance. It sounds like a good one and your topic here at Shalom Place is a particularly good one.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Brad says: "With all due respect to Elaine Aron, I find it highly informative to talk with people �second hand� as it were to see what�s happening not just in theory but in real life.
By all means invite her over here if possible and we can have the best of all worlds. I�ll check out the book too if I get a chance. It sounds like a good one and your topic here at Shalom Place is a particularly good one."

Brad,

Goofy me, still don't know how to get the quotes right.

Anyway, did I tell you that Elaine Aron is an HSP, and so she knows firsthand from her own experience, plus all her research with 1000's of other individuals. She also studied much of Carl Jung's works.

I used to be moderator at the HSP Message Board which now has well over 1000 members. Got to be too much for me. But if you want to know what HSPs are saying and experiencing in real life ,pay a visit. You can go to www.sensitiveperson.com Then click on Message Board. Plenty of real life expereinces you'll find there! I think you can "lurk" without registering.

Hmmmm, not a bad idea about inviting her over here. I'll see what I can do.

Glad you like this topic, and thanks very much for all your replies.

Katy
 
Posts: 538 | Location: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: 17 November 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anyway, did I tell you that Elaine Aron is an HSP, and so she knows firsthand from her own experience, plus all her research with 1000's of other individuals. She also studied much of Carl Jung's works.

Katy, I see that I�m going to soon be outnumbered by Jungians! Wink I remember JB espousing some rather good Jungian ideas and they were very interesting ones indeed.

I used to be moderator at the HSP Message Board which now has well over 1000 members. Got to be too much for me.

I�m a moderator on another board (about 50 members) and I know what it�s like to have one�s hands full, but 90% of the �trouble� I gladly bring upon myself. But relating this to HSP, I find that the inherent �silent� nature of textual communication more than offsets any other �loud� attributes of same. Granted, that won�t be the same for everyone.

You can go to www.sensitiveperson.com Then click on Message Board. Plenty of real life expereinces you'll find there! I think you can "lurk" without registering.

Thanks for the link. I think I�ll go lurk.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Brad:

"I�m a moderator on another board (about 50 members) and I know what it�s like to have one�s hands full, but 90% of the �trouble� I gladly bring upon myself. But relating this to HSP, I find that the inherent �silent� nature of textual communication more than offsets any other �loud� attributes of same. Granted, that won�t be the same for everyone."

Katy:

Well, I would say you have a point there! Those people on the HSP M. B. sure do "talk" a lot!

:-)
Katy
P.S. Let me know if you lurk, and what you think. lol
 
Posts: 538 | Location: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: 17 November 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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P.S. Let me know if you lurk, and what you think. Lol

From this thread:
quote:
I have some heavy questions that have been weighing on my mind lately. Lately I've been thinking, what is the point to all of this? By this, I mean, life in general. I hate our society, based on consurmerism and materialism. But yet, at the same time, I really have no belief in anything spirtitual. I would love to have faith, it would make everything so much easier. But I'm a sceptic by nature, and since I have never experienced anything that would be classified as spiritual, I find it hard to believe. I wish I could have just one little sign, to show me that there is something beyond this physical world. I find it utterly depressing to think that this is all there is, but at the same time, I'm unwilling to believe in something just to have piece of mind.
That�s a weighty observation/question. I like it. Of course, speaking from experience, by talking things out a bit we might change our observations from �I hate our society, based on consurmerism and materialism� to �I don�t like how materialistic and consumption-orient *I* have become.� I think an internet forum can be a great place for sensitive (or insensitive) people to ask such things within the relative safety of anonymity. It�s not easy though, because what may be gained in anonymity might be lost in the sheer number of different people who hear your story and then comment on it one way or another � ways that you have no control over. (Which can be a good thing because then you might actually hear what you need to hear � no sugar coating. Of course, this is my opinion and does not necessarily represent the opinion of the management and staff of Shalom Place.) Big Grin For sensitive people (among other reasons) I could see where this would be a challenge. Kudos to this person for sticking her or her neck out and making such a profound observation.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good exchanges, Katy and Brad. And I agree that a web forum can be a great medium for reducing some of the "noise" in communications. Only, sometimes that includes valuable non-verbal information. Emoticons to the rescue! Smiler

I wish I could have just one little sign, to show me that there is something beyond this physical world. I find it utterly depressing to think that this is all there is, but at the same time, I'm unwilling to believe in something just to have piece of mind.

Boy, what a great opening for a spiritual direction session! Or for some insights from the philosophy of nature! If only we had someone around here who could offer such . . . Razzer
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm unwilling to believe in something just to have piece of mind.

There is a deep commitment to integrity that is expressed in such a statement that I find very honorable. There is also an implicit commitment to the idea that there is a truth that exists independently of all of our belief systems, whether theistic or nontheistic, whether agnostic or atheist, or what have you, and that, if only we could access that truth, we could then make an informed decision about which belief system is correct or, at least, most correct.

These commitments entail a fundamental trust in reality, however uncertain reality may be, which trust further entails the beliefs that reality is intelligible (at least partly understandable) and that we are intelligent (at least partly capable of understanding reality through our senses and our minds). These are faith commitments. These are beliefs.

People believe in reality's trustworthiness, in reality's intelligibility and in our intelligence, based on a type of faith that is pre-philosophical, pre-scientific and pre-theological. They cannot, however, rationally demonstrate that this faith or that these fundamental beliefs (first principles) are justified.

Why do people nurture such beliefs then? Is it not because a rejection of such propositions would lead to absurdity and total cognitive dissonance? These beliefs, then, give us a type of cognitive consonance, a certain type of peace of mind.

In that regard, then, we're all willing to believe in something in order to have peace of mind. I think the next step, then, is where the real struggle ensues: What else is worthy of my faith? Who else is worthy of my trust? Just because it gives me peace of mind doesn't mean it is not true. Neither does it mean it is true.

A search for reliable, credible and trustworty authorities and for great ideas to believe in in this life is an honorable search, a worthy journey. What we do with our faith is critically important to ourselves and others. No one, however, journeys without some type of faith. That is an inescapable reality of the human condition and there are many options that are logically valid (make sense) and many that feel existentially warranted (draw us through experience).

Witness, therefore, the diversity of worldviews. Which, however, has the most modeling power for putting us in touch with reality, both seen and unseen? Which is most logically consistent, internally coherent and externally congruent (best corresponding to external reality and science)? Well, for starters, I'd look for an approach that affirms both faith and reason because, after all, everything we already claim to "know" is grounded in both of these ways of approaching reality and to deny same would be both inconsistent and incoherent, which is to say, cognitively dissonant, which is to further suggest will detract from our peace of mind Wink

pax,
jb
 
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Phil said: If only we had someone around here who could offer such . . .

JB said: These commitments entail a fundamental trust in reality, however uncertain reality may be, which trust further entails the beliefs that reality is intelligible (at least partly understandable) and that we are intelligent (at least partly capable of understanding reality through our senses and our minds). These are faith commitments. These are beliefs.

Hope and Crosby. Don't tell me. You two have worked together before, right? That's a great summation, JB.

We certainly trust that reality is intelligible, but we also fear that reality might be impersonal and cold. We fear that our lives, our joys, and our suffering have no deeper meaning. We might actually gain some piece of mind if we knew this for certain, despite the depressing aspects of it. It's the not knowing that can drive us crazy.

Pity those who are held in suspension between belief and disbelief. I would agree that faith (one way or the other) can be a braver step and is not simply the escaping of cognitive dissonance to bask in the light of blissful ignorance and certainty (that Catholic regimen is no piece of cake). But it can also be a brave thing, despite the usual connotations, to be a fence-sitter in regard to these big questions. That ain't so easy either! It all comes down to fear and trust. Unless Jesus himself appeared (and even then!), it's not easy to present enough evidence to overcome fear and distrust. For a human to turn control of their lives to something they can not normally see and touch, particularly if they feel they have so little control now, is not a "sweet deal" to many.

I speak from experience. I do not feel better than thou for not having made a commitment. Honestly, I feel more like a chicken sh*t. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Many people have been jerked around enough and are a bit touchy about getting waylaid again. So a lot of us end up living the ethics traditionally found in religion while staying at arm's length from it. We develop our own little world views and they're often one-of-a-kind world views - and often lonely ones. But they give us something into which to put our ethical and philosophical beliefs. Of course, you'll not find two Catholics who think exactly the same way - or two Lutherans - so joining the Christian Party isn't exactly like being shackled. But there are some beliefs that they all share and that really gets us down to the nitty gritty: Is there a God and was Jesus his Son? I've yet to see a convincing answer, and yet I've seen no bad answers (here). The possibilities float in the air like dandelion seeds, and one never knows when one will land and sprout. But being suspended in the air can also be a graceful thing.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mr. Nelson approaches the edge of the cliff. Will he take the leap or not? Be with us next week as we . . . Wink

Seriously now, that's a very poignant description of your inner situation, Brad, and one I'm sure many can relate to, even those who call themselves "believers." Increasingly, and especially in doing spiritual direction, it is impressed on me how faith is really a gift, and not something one can simply "talk oneself into." I don't really know *why* I have faith, but I'm darned sure I can't take much credit for it. Maybe for pursuing the kinds of disciplines that help it to grow . . . even that, I suspect a kind of prevenient grace to be at work. I think that growing up in a kind of faith milieu "infected" me somehow, so that I was never able to completely shake off my religious faith even during the more materialistic, non-spiritual phases of my younger years. There is a lot of mystery about this. The act of faith is always in its most authentic movements a confrontation with uncertitude, even while standing on certain promises and convictions.

Ah, there we go again, meandering off-thread topic. Sorry, Katy.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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re: people taking leaps

There are leaps and then there are leaps.

The most important leap, according to Catholic doctrine, is the commitment to live an upright and good life. That leap is not only necessary but, as the philosophers like to say, is also sufficient. This, we hold, happens all of the time, in the human race, and with no benefit from or adherence to the cognitive content contained in any particular creed, Catholic or other, with no explicit reference to any type of Divine Revelation.

Blessed and happy, indeed, are those of explicit faith and a confident assurance in things hoped for. In another way, how poignantly beautiful those who pursue this upright and good life with no promise of future reward. Such unconditional love so very closely mirrors the Imago Dei, n'est pas?

Still, I pray that all may receive whatever consolation available from their faith, however explicit or implicit, and, if it is implicit only, then I pray they at least experience the intrinsic rewards that we all believe are available from simply doing what we believe is the good and right thing. Such an implicit faith, otherwise doctrine-free, in a manner of speaking, could be considered the deepest of all, as many mystics testify that it is when we are in the Dark Night, yet persisting in love, that we are closest of all to God. Small consolation now, perhaps, for one caught up in doubt, but it is still a great witness to onlookers and a great challenge to believers.

One might also take consolation in the fact that, however much in doubt, of this there can be no doubt: The best case scenario for human salvation over death and sin has been recognized by the best philosophy at our disposal as logically possible and no less reasonable a scenario than other alternatives that have been considered. One might also take courage in the knowledge that many people of large intelligence and profound goodwill have testifed in behalf of this best case scenario, often at a price of great personal sacrifice. Such testimony from saints living and of old can be considered as coming from reliable, credible and trustworthy, hence authoritative, sources. I only believe in quarks because of others' authority, too.

There is a lot going for belief that might lead one to believe that a preponderance of the circumstantial evidence even makes the best case scenario, by some measures, probable. Alas, even then, faith and doubt are a polar reality. If we knew for sure, it wouldn't be called faith in the first place.

What's this thread about? Cool

pax,
jb
 
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Phil said: Be with us next week as we . . .

LOL! I'm a tough nut to crack but, as you said (and I hope it's true), I think I speak for at least more people than just myself, and since I have the mouth and I have the will, I don't mind if I do. Wink

I don't really know *why* I have faith, but I'm darned sure I can't take much credit for it.

I've done some things I couldn't have done alone and yet had no apparent help. I'd really make a lousy atheist.

Ah, there we go again, meandering off-thread topic. Sorry, Katy.

We're just keeping this thread warm for until she adds more. But I've been thinking a lot about HSP the last couple days (always a dangerous proposition) and it makes sense. That's even taking into account other contributing factors. There's just little question in my mind that if there are sense mechanisms that they can be calibrated to different sensitivities. How else could some of those artists draw like they do? How else could those poets be so emotive? But I'm also aware that there are quieter, perhaps more hidden sensitivities that aren't quite as outwardly impressive as those possessed by poets, philosophers and priests. I'm also mindful of what might be called "unsensitive" might better be thought of as "properly calibrated" and thus better able to really grasp some of the subtleties in a more well-rounded fashion instead of being like Icarus and flying too close to the sun.

The idea of HSP's has a lot of explanatory power even if fairly broadly defined. I've been fighting fears all my life that I could never overcome no matter how bravely I tried. So, instead of spitting into the wind it might be better to go with the flow (that is, to accept it). Alas, it looks like I stand little chance of ever becoming an insensitive jerk. (I heard that, JB.)
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The most important leap, according to Catholic doctrine, is the commitment to live an upright and good life�.Blessed and happy, indeed, are those of explicit faith and a confident assurance in things hoped for. In another way, how poignantly beautiful those who pursue this upright and good life with no promise of future reward.

Very nicely put, JB, but I humbly suggest it does not apply to me. I don't want to talk about me. My destiny is a weird one but it is what it is and I can live with that. But I run into people all the time that exactly fit the above description. Many of them are not what I'd call friendly to religion but neither are they trying to "one-up" religion and rub their good life in its face (if you catch my drift). I think many people have gotten mistaken ideas about religion (can't imagine from where) and thus never fully enter into that realm. But they are practically walking the walk whether they know it or not.

Dark Night, yet persisting in love, that we are closest of all to God

I find that to be such an amazing religious concept.

The best case scenario for human salvation over death and sin has been recognized by the best philosophy at our disposal as logically possible and no less reasonable a scenario than other alternatives that have been considered. One might also take courage in the knowledge that many people of large intelligence and profound goodwill have testifed in behalf of this best case scenario, often at a price of great personal sacrifice. Such testimony from saints living and of old can be considered as coming from reliable, credible and trustworthy, hence authoritative, sources. I only believe in quarks because of others' authority, too.

That's a great point. Although I think that personal experience (some type of "religious experience" � at least now and again) is perhaps prerequisite for faith or religious belief (or not � that's just my personal view), I think it's good to keep in mind that I take it on faith that Ben Franklin ever existed. Fact is, I never met him. I just have the stories that other people have told and the pieces of paper that others assure me is proof of his existence. Time does not necessarily age the truth (nor are fresh perceptions necessarily more reliable as any police officer at an accident scene will tell you). And I'm sure that some of those saints were highly sensitive people. (How's that, Phil?)
 
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I think that personal experience (some type of "religious experience" � at least now and again) is perhaps prerequisite for faith or religious belief (or not � that's just my personal view), I think it's good to keep in mind that I take it on faith that Ben Franklin ever existed. Fact is, I never met him. I just have the stories that other people have told and the pieces of paper that others assure me is proof of his existence. Time does not necessarily age the truth

1) So we have historical evidence and some stories? That's a good start. Yes, that is how it usually starts.

2) Next, take Ben's various aphorisms and his wit and wisdom and put them into practice in your own life. If they work, that will testify to his reliability and credibility, too.

3) Then, recognize the connection between what Ben said and who Ben was and who Ben claimed to be, because we cannot really separate what he taught from what he actually did (and I understand that tales of his debauchery are largely exaggerated) or who he claimed to be.

4) Now, gather as much evidence as one can about every person who truly put Ben's wisdom into practice after hearing same to test both the value of his wisdom and his veracity and to properly discern whether or not this living community, however formal or informal, has much on the ball (as well as every good reason to place him on a $100 bill as a constant reminder of his greatness and our devotion).

I think I see what you mean. I'm going to go out, tomorrow morning, pick me up one of them good old Farmer's Almanacs and give it the good college try. Then I'll report back on how Ben has changed my life and how and why.

Sing it, now, Marvin:
We're all sensitive people ...
With so much love to give ...

So, you think Ben was an HSP?

pax,
jb
 
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Although I think that personal experience (some type of "religious experience" � at least now and again) is perhaps prerequisite for faith or religious belief (or not � that's just my personal view). . .

Your view is is or not.? Razzer

Seriously, I think I know what you mean. People have experiences of mystery that lead them to investigate religion and they eventually embrace some kind of religious faith. More often than not, however, I think it goes the other way around--that people have embraced certain faith propositions and act on them, discovering a kind of validation of their beliefs in the process. It's the old, "Believe and you shall see" dynamic.

I think some of those faith-propositions/convictions are absorbed growing up in a home where faith is practiced. Sorting through them and clarifying them is also an ongoing journey. But the "act of faith," per se, does not require a highly developed level of theological profundity.. Most of mine are prompted by such convictions as:
- God is here, now, loving (sound familiar? Wink )
- God desires your happiness.
- You and God can always handle what's happening now.
- Open yourself to God's guidance in this moment.
- "Come, O Spirit, and show me the way. Let me know your love and wisdom at this time." (the act of faith, proper, expressed in prayer, as is usually the case.)

Simple affirmations, underpinned by layers and layers of reading, reflection, and dialogue, but--most importantly--reinforced by what happens as a consequence of making the act of faith. There is a sense of a shift that happens from the act of faith, usually a very subtle one. One might feel the same, but there is a peace that wraps itself around those feelings, enabling me to persevere to do what is needed. There is often also a sense of guidance, though that, too, is very subtle.

I hear it is much the same for HSPs. Wink
 
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quote:
- God is here, now, loving (sound familiar? Wink )
- God desires your happiness.
- You and God can always handle what's happening now.
- Open yourself to God's guidance in this moment.
- "Come, O Spirit, and show me the way. Let me know your love and wisdom at this time." (the act of faith, proper, expressed in prayer, as is usually the case.)
Wonderfully and succinctly stated, Phil. I guess it doesn't have to be so complicated and drawn out.

Which reminds me that I was in the bookstore yesterday and came across a rather thick book called "Catechism of the Catholic Church." (Interestingly it opened at a section explaining that Jews were not to be held accountable as a race for the death of Jesus - which is further interesting because that same day Michael Medved was discussing this in reference to Mel Gibson's new movie, "The Passion"). Sin-chronicity?

quote:
Simple affirmations, underpinned by layers and layers of reading, reflection, and dialogue, but--most importantly--reinforced by what happens as a consequence of making the act of faith. There is a sense of a shift that happens from the act of faith, usually a very subtle one. One might feel the same, but there is a peace that wraps itself around those feelings, enabling me to persevere to do what is needed. There is often also a sense of guidance, though that, too, is very subtle.
I do think you can connect all this (by the way � well said) with highly sensitive people. That NOVA brain program I mentioned in another thread also dealt with this guy who had brain seizures of some kind. After the seizures he was left in a profound, joyful state of reverence, awe and love for all things. He felt deeply connected with God (and for a while thought that *he* was God). The scientist is the same guy who supposedly discovered an area in our brain that supposedly makes us receptive to religious beliefs. Well, apparently this one patient's "religious center" in the brain was left super-sensitive (or at least over active) after a seizure. Of course the conclusion of the scientist was a bit suspect; that our brains were adapted for a belief in religion because it might provide some advantage for people to group together socially. (I might say that eyes evolved because there exists the electromagnetic spectrum just waiting to be tuned into.) But all that's beside the point somewhat. The point is that we use reason and feelings to gauge the truth of many things. Some brains might not be sensitively tuned to God FM and thus those peaceful warm religious feelings might not be so prominent � or might be so intermittent and weak as to be difficult to make us of. Which, of course, could lead some to more intellectual pursuits of God. Or to agnosticism.
 
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The point is that we use reason and feelings to gauge the truth of many things. Some brains might not be sensitively tuned to God FM and thus those peaceful warm religious feelings might not be so prominent � or might be so intermittent and weak as to be difficult to make us of. Which, of course, could lead some to more intellectual pursuits of God. Or to agnosticism.

Maybe so. Or maybe another aspect of "Believe and you shall see" is that the act of faith helps to awaken that mystically sensitive part of the brain to which you are referring. This, in turn, could reinforce something of the act of faith, and might even affect other parts of the brain. But, yes, the role of the brain in all this is important, and I see the connection you're making with HSP.
 
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Phil said: Or maybe another aspect of "Believe and you shall see" is that the act of faith helps to awaken that mystically sensitive part of the brain to which you are referring.

No question about it. Our vision is narrowed by what we expect to see.
 
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