With these findings, one has to wonder if increased immunizations aren't leading to impaired immune status as part of the increase in cancer rates for the past 40 years - about the same time period in which vaccinations have been on the increase.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200048,00.html

w.c. you said "With these findings, one has to wonder if increased immunizations aren't leading to impaired immune status"

Well my husband and I are somewhat against immunisations, something that you cannot really say out a loud, especially if you are in africa.
We just had a baby boy in October last year, we went to a Birthing clinic, which chooses to to most things naturally, so we had a choice whether to immunise our new born or not. We didn't!
Our parents... actually most of the people we come into contact with drop their Jaws at our decision.

However we found that Joshua, has a much better immune system in comparison with his cousins who have all been immunised.
My Mom, stopped my vaccinations (deep down she is a naturalist, afraid to admit it though)as a toddler, I have had no childhood illnesses i.e. measels, chicken pox, etc. My husband had all his shots, and had everything and measels repeated when he was 23. At this time we were married, and I still did not get it!
So my conclusion would be that yes it does impair our immune system. And now that you bring the point up about cancer...kinda makes sense.

Right now, polio is on the loose in Namibia, which borders our country, and my son is not immunised against it. I have read that if you have been immunised you have a higher risk of getting it, than if have not been immunised. But the risk is small.

Yes, it seems the rise in rates of cancer parallels the increase in immunizations. And I've seen uncorroborated data suggesting that immunizations actually decrease killer cell response and increase what is called B-cell mediated response, the latter much less involved in the body's response to tumors.

I'm having my naturopathic doctor work up a homeopathic nosode that he thinks will help eliminate some of the damage done by the immunizations, as any slight relative value they may have had in the past is obsolete by now.

Are you saying that an immunisation works like antibiotics? When taken it kills good bacterias as it works through to the sickness in the body?
Great idea, that your doctor mix up a nosode.
I think that in being so hygenic we create super bugs, so we become dependant on these immunisations.
I do not know what it is like in your country. But in SA there seems to be a movement towards a more natural approach to life. It seems that a more natural healthy lifestyle, lessens the need to take medication or immunisations.

Do you know anything about fresh apricot seeds and their connection with cancer?

Apricot seeds and cancer treatment. . . you can google and probably find links to this, but there are much better advances in research, such as what was being called "dendritic therapy," not to confuse with brain cells, but a metaphor to describe a type of messenger immune cell that is cultured and put back into the patient's body. Much success with this in clinical trials around the world for various types of cancer.

daughteroflove, all one has to do is look at the number of incidents of polio in countries before immunization and after. Immunization works! It does improve your odds of not coming down with this disease. Same for smallpox, diphtheria and a wide range of other diseases.

Natural approaches have their place, but so do allophathic, conventional strategies. It's not an either/or proposition, imo.

Yes, the polio vaccine is an example of effectiveness. The problem here is the vast number of vaccines given together to children whose immune systems are easily overwhelmed. Only in the U.S. are these numerous vaccines given, whereas Europe and Japan have reduced them, as well as been more forthcoming about the mercury in the vaccines.

Many of the vaccines are for diseases that are not lethal, and that actually may confer a strengthening effect on the immune system by the child's exposure. How ridiculous to have a vaccine for chicken pox when children easily survive the disease. The cautionary about children who don't contract the disease isn't enough to warrant, imo, giving the vaccine with so many others just because adults getting chicken pox have such serious life threatening responses. Go ahead and give the vaccine to the older child or adult, then, as so few will not have contracted chicken pox earlier on. And regarding the need for medical advice, I recommend speaking with a licensed naturopathic doctor for a second opinion, as most MDs without complimentary-alternative training are probably not going to be very patient with such questions.

I would still consider giving my child all his immunisations when he is a bit older when his system can handle the mecury and all the other stuff in there.
When it comes to immunisation, by doing it, my child is at risk for autism and then not doing it he is at a risk of getting his childhood illnesses? So in a situation like this, what does one decide.
For me I have chosen to breastfeed, eat a healthy diet and when my child is ready allow him to follow a healthy lifestyly as well.

Phil, we have not had a case of polio recorded in SA for over a decade, it may be even more. And yes it is because fo the so called vaccines. But what about the large amount of people who follow the same lifestyle as I do, and have rebelled against the vaccinations? What about the large amounts of people who have not been vaccinated against the virus and have not contracted it?

My husband and I would love to travel in Africa for ministry purposes, then I think would really have to consider vaccinating against Polio.

Dear Phil and w.c.
I hope I don't come across as being stuck in my ways I just think that a fresh view on this topic, other than what we hear at home, is very much welcomed.

DOV:

The other thing to remember is that the vaccines, if effective at all, appear time-limited. So immunizing young children may not serve them later in life.

Here's a report on the HPV vaccine that you've all probably heard about. Not much is said about mercury contamination of the vaccines, which itself can cause degenerative diseases. It's a bit of a stretch to claim that giving this vaccine to girls as young as 9 will protect them at age 60 from cervical cancer. I doubt any of the studies really show the longeivety of the vaccine, even in animal models, for which this particular cancer may not lend itself.

Of course, the idea is that young sexually active girls might contract the virus which threatens only later in life. Well, how does a virus remain dormant, or non-threatening, for half a decade, and then rear its head? I'm questioning, of course, the connection between viral causality and the cancer. But even if the link is substantial, what about the 60 year immune system leaves it vulnerable to a dormant virus? Keeping the immune system strong would seem the best approach, but then that involves lifestyle changes, etc . . . for which vaccines are presumed effective to supplant.

Furthermore, presuming the young women will be sexually active decades after being immunized, the vaccine's effectiveness over time remains an issue.

http://www.marketwatch.com/New...26A99784%7D&keyword=

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050530/pollitt


I'm changing the thread topic to reflect the changed content.

w.c. thanks. I hear what you are saying. I am starting to feel more sure about my decisions.
I have heard of the HPV vaccine. Your questions...I agree. Will be looking forward to looking for the answers.
Lifestyle change is absolutely hard! My husband and I try our best to live this way. It is possible though.

w.c. thanks. I hear what you are saying. I am starting to feel more sure about my decisions.
I have heard of the HPV vaccine. Your questions...I agree. Will be looking forward to looking for the answers.
Lifestyle change is absolutely hard! My husband and I try our best to live this way. It is possible though.
What are other ways to keeping the immune system strong?
I am not sure if Mary Anne Shearer rings a bell to you? She is also a natural practioner, she is more involved with nutrition. She has some good stuff to say and some very good advice.
www.mary-anns.com

DOV:

As for supporting immunity, I'd again recommend a licensed acupuncturist, as the Chinese medical system has quite a complex understanding of the immune system, what they call the "Wei Chi," along with its interdepdent interactions with other bodily systems. Western medicine finally recognizes that the body's various systems aren't seperate, but has yet to discover how this works clinically. So any licensed acupuncturist will have completed an extensive herb clinic before graduating and should be capable of treating constitutional weaknesses and acute and some chronic illnesses.

As for the lady you gave a link to, I didn't see her credentials, so wouldn't know what to say. When I refer to naturopaths, I'm talking about actual licensed physicians trained in one of the 4 or 5 accredited naturopathic medical colleges on the North American continent. You may have something similar close by; otherwise you might at least be able to do some research on-line.

Are you familiar with Dr. Andrew Weil's website?

wc:

I believe in using alternate medicine, first above anything else. I also believe that healing can come from Above as well. I would go to a doctor as a last resort. But then there a some alternative practises that I would question, acupuncture being one of them, I have no conclusion on it.

I have seen a website on Christianity and accupuncture. http://www.gotquestions.org/ac...cture-Christian.html

But obviously a very reformed website, imo.
But that is just one out of many.

I find ayuverdic medicine and lifestyle very attractive as well. What would your opinion be on that. It would be very interesting to find out.

I did check on Mary Anne's website, you were right. I have tried to find her book on Amazon, can't either. it just would have been good if you read the first page of her book, Healthy kids, the Natural way. She does not have a degree as such, but in SA the Laws on natural practioners are different, and homeopaths, have only been recognised now in the past 2 to 3 years. Most of our naturopaths have received their training out of SA. Medical Aids have only just started recognising them as practioners.

In her book, she quotes and uses Vaccinations. Deception and Tragedy by Michael Dye, to support her view on vaccines.

Dr Weil's Website looks really good. I will be looking more at it later on.

The link below, provides a good list of books on Vaccinations.
http://home.san.rr.com/via/VIAINFO/vaxbooks.htm

DOV:

If you view acupuncture as a religious system, and are experiencing your Christian faith from a fundamentalist perspective, then yes, I could see the conflict. But the vast majority of acupuncturists, especially those trained in the west, aren't going to promote a religious creed, and may not even be practicing Taoists, Buddhists, etc . . . In Communist China it is practiced as a medical system, and is being researched in the west as such. So I would be more interested in its efficacy than its distant religious heritage. IOW, I view Christianity as theologically evolved, so to speak, beyond Taoism, and therefore acupuncture and herbal therapy are relatively neutral aspects of a medical system and expressions of a cosmological/religious system which offers a partial truth.

Most of the Founding Fathers of the United States weren't Christian, but atheists and Deists, but that doesn't taint my appreciation and acceptance of the truths they were able to embody as political ideals congruent with the average person's sense of morality.

Acupuncture is much safer than Reiki and Qigong with respect to any stimulation of kundalini; it tends to facilitate the body's homeostasis, or potential for balancing itself. So I'd recommed an approach that scrutinizes acupuncture mainly for its efficacy, and to withold judgment until you've had the experience a few times. I've never heard anybody reporting they've been made more vulnerable to evil by getting treated.

As for Ayurveda, I've had some consultations by a well-known Indian practitioner, but that was years ago. Ayurvedic medicine is a branch of the Vedas, which are the Scriptures of Hinduism, so you're probably more indirectly involved in another faith's precepts than were you to receive acupuncture; the latter is more removed from its Taoists roots in practical terms than Ayurveda is from Hinduism. But again, for me, none of that matters, as I don't see Christianity, or my own faith experience, as vulnerable to nefarious influences in either case; however, I would avoid Taoist and Hindu practices where they focus on non-dualism and kundalini as a primary focus of attention.

wc:

I find your view on Alternate medical Practices very interesting. Thank you for the way you put it.
I have not experienced acupunture, but reflexolgy I have.
I was told to go to a reflexologist to help my baby drop, this was when I was pregnant. The reflexologist happened to be a Reiki Master, and she asked if she could 'send some reiki to me'. I agreed to do this knowing my faith in Christ was strong, and that He would show me if it were right or wrong. Well that evening, I had an 'amazing' fight with the devil that night.

When it comes to eating and using products, ayurvedic remedies seem to help. Can you separate this from the its entirety?

Yes, I haven't had trouble seperating ayurvedic herbal medicine from Hinduism. I still use some of their herbal remedies, but wouldn't use matras, etc. But each person would have to discern for themselves how much of an issue this sort of thing is in terms of psychic sensitivity. I don't see anything in Christian theology that would prohibit adopting the medicine of other cultures - short of taking on their religious practices. God created the meridian/energy system, so just because the Chinese and East Indians developed it broadly doesn't mean it was unknown to the ancients of western culture.

DOV: Phil, we have not had a case of polio recorded in SA for over a decade, it may be even more. And yes it is because fo the so called vaccines. But what about the large amount of people who follow the same lifestyle as I do, and have rebelled against the vaccinations? What about the large amounts of people who have not been vaccinated against the virus and have not contracted it?

But why roll the dice with something like this? Polio vaccine, in particular, has a very good safety record, and is very effective.

As with so many things, one must weigh the risks versus the benefits. In the case of most vaccines, I think the benefits are worth it, even if the risk of contracting the disease is small. When and how to adminsiter these is an issue I don't feel competent to advise on, however, but we don't seem to be too much worse off for doing it with small children in the U.S.

From what you and others have shared about reiki, I'd encourage caution. I know many (even on this board) have attested to its benefits, but there are obviously risks.

Phil:

I would issue the disclaimer as well: I'm not intending to give medical advice. But here's what I'm hearing from some parents and physicians:

Polio is probably one of the few examples of a vaccine where the risks outweigh the merits of withoding the immunization. However, these vaccines appear to have a much shorter half-life than most doctors would have us believe; as such, one isn't really sure how long the vaccine is effective. And where the disease is non-existent, and the vaccine contains highly toxic mercury, one can see where parents would be wary. Furthermore, the number of vaccines given at the same time to immuno-undeveloped infants is unstudied, and seems to be where the statistically insignificant connection to vaccine-induced autism comes from.

So parents actually face this:

Polio: serious disease; non-existent; vaccine contains mercury: disease causing; risk of autism higher than the risk of contracting polio.

That's pretty much the math as I've heard concerned parents and doctors explain it.


As for the much less threatening diseases such as Chicken pox and Measles, it seems ridiculous to give these to infants who can survive the diseases and come out with a more fortified immune system for it. Again, there are quite a few doctors who hold this view. As for Chicken pox, by the time it becomes a risk for its more threatening version in adulthood, there is significant doubt as to whether or not the vaccine is protective for such a length of time. What seems most protective for adult onset of Chicken pox is contracting the virus in childhood.

Hey Guys,

Just thought I would add my thoughts.

When our son was born I was still undecided about the vacine debate, and still am. Therefore I have not yet vaccinated him (8 months old).

If we were to move to an area that is particulary dangerous concerning a certain disease, i think I will vacinate him. But i am still concerned about the possible negative effects.

I for example have some sort of tourettes syndrome and while I have not read anything linking vaccines with tourettes, when I heard about the debate concerning vacinnes I couldn't help but wonder.

The truth is we don't really know all the ramifications of injecting babies and children with diseases that they did not pick up naturally. Not to mention how the vaccines are made and preserved.

Some vaccines are grown in monkey and other animal tissues and some even use cells of aborted human babies link: web page serious ethical issues.

As a father it concerns me.

I would also be shattered if my reluctance to vaccinate led to my child contracting polio or something else!!!

Good points, Jacques. Thanks for dropping in on this thread.

Welcome Jacques

How effective is a vaccine in South Africa if the vaccine were made in Japan? The strain is made for an illness that affects Japanese for that specific country climate, for their diet etc. Does it make a difference if South Africans use it? Is it still effective?

Recent Canadian research fails to find link between increased vaccinations and autism in children:


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202445,00.html

An interesting book

Demonised doctoring, about the evil and corruption in the medical/pharmaceutical complex.
Some of it seems to go a bit far, but where there is that much smoke there has to be a fire! demonised doctoring

kind of makes you question anything that is produced by those who might make money from disease

Here's Dr. Weil's response to an inquiry on this subject. I find it interesting that he doesn't take strong exception to two dozen injections given over the first two years of the child's life, as these invasive experiences are fairly emotionally traumatizing. He doesn't argue strongly against postponing vaccinations, but notice how little evidence there is presented for real disease concerns, since many of these viral diseases are not current nation-wide pandemics, and seem survivable via a strong or fortified immune system (with the support of naturopathic or Chinese medicine).

Much of these recommendations seem about fear of the unknown, which is complicated for most people by not knowing how effective naturopathic medicine can be; it won't treat polio, but this is a non-existent disease in most parts of the world. There are only a few other diseases, also rare or non-existent, such as small pox, that seem untreatable without vaccination, but small pox vaccinations haven't been given for quite some time until recently.

See the thread on alternative research for managing influenza, which is a good example of what can be done in response to the pandemic of fear created by the media. Imo, utilizing a licensed naturopathic doctor willing to consider vaccinations, but question them as well, can educate and limit the degree of irrational fear that may impact a parent's decision-making.


http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA400067