http://www.innerexplorations.com/catew/10.htm

http://www.emptybell.org/trueself.html

http://shakuhachi.com/PG-Brooks-RJonas.html

http://www.cssr.org/soc_sbcs.htm

I like this fellow. He's been on the path a very long time and he writes from a very deep place
with mind and soul and heart.

I usually say "avoid Freud" but he seems to have integrated this into his Carmelite/Buddhist practice.

I'm thinking about "right speech" and I feel that I have been neglecting to light the candle rather than cursing the darkness. It seems more skillful to speak well of spiritual folk who
love and instruct.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Good topic! I've been on the edges of this dialogue for years through my connection with Arraj and some of the Redemptorists who teach Zen.

Our thread on Enlightenment and Christian Spirituality would include some of my thoughts on this topic, as I see Buddhism "aiming" for an enlightenment/advaitan kind of mystical experience.

quote:

I'm thinking about "right speech" and I feel that I have been neglecting to light the candle rather than cursing the darkness. It seems more skillful to speak well of spiritual folk who
love and instruct.

A wonderful thought, Michael. I suppose it�s balance that we�re after. I think charlatans ought to be pointed out as charlatans and this needn�t inherently be a nasty, hate-filled affair. The search for truth, the laying out of facts and the giving of opinions can be taken as uplifting or threatening depending on one�s stance on the issues. But criticism isn�t inherently divisive or unkind. Nor do I happen to believe that all problems can be resolved, at least on this Earth, by only the application of absolute pacifistic loving-kindness (as defined by the Depak Choprahs of the world). In fact, some rather hostile-appearing acts (such as withholding money from a teenager who really needs to go out and get a job) are actually loving acts. I say beware of those who are quick to define something as "cursing the darkness" (or in PC language, of being "divisive").

That said, your point about giving praise is noted and, I will acknowledge, is not as common on internet forums. It�s just not as "sexy" as tearing something apart. That is, I agree with the thrust of what you�re saying (and, as usually, am giving the often "silent" other side of the coin).

And speaking of Christian/Buddhist dialogue, the above type of discourse, in my humble opinion, is a type that I think is severely lacking.

Good topic, MM. I�ll shut up now.

Sure, some of the Buddhist groups are just so sacharine sweet that it breeds a hypocrisy of it's own. Just go around trying to be "nice" all day and see how far you get. Then there is the phenomenon
of the vegetarian environmentalist animal rights activist showing up to the group in an SUV, wearing a leather jacket and chomping on a cheeseburger.

Ok, so all groups have their weaknesses, but which general direction would an ego bound westerner who thinks too much wish to move in?


caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Sure, some of the Buddhist groups are just so sacharine sweet that it breeds a hypocrisy of it's own. Just go around trying to be "nice" all day and see how far you get.

LOL. Michael, you read my mind. One can appreciate both authenticity and being nice (even if one isn�t particularly feeling nice at the moment). But since I�m a crude, individualistic American, I kinda prefer the semi-brusk and authentic.

Ok, so all groups have their weaknesses, but which general direction would an ego bound westerner who thinks too much wish to move in?

My bet is there�s nothing wrong with your ego. It�s the little peripheral aches and pains of shame, guilt, etc., that don�t allow the healthy expression of ego that are probably the problem. Enjoy your ego. You clearly mean no harm and I think you can trust your instincts. If things go a bit awry then just apologize quickly and be done with it. You would already be ahead of 80% of the population just by doing that. But feel free to be yourself. Indulge that ego. Give it a good workout. Don�t loose possibly the best part of yourself because a few monks, working 24/7, have purported to have dispensed with the need for it. You might not look good in a toga anyway.

As for thinking too much? I�m the president of that club. Don�t fight it. Soon you will discover just how much effort you put into suppressing and trying to control your thoughts. They are there for a reason. Let them flow. Then you will start experiencing, here and there, in small doses, quieter moments. You will also discover that your thinking is a defense. It is often just an unhealthy diligence.

Or you can sit cross-legged for hours on end and ruin your knees.

You're cracking me up One decision Keating et al made early on in the centering prayer movement was to let people meditate in a chair unless they really wanted to sit on a cushion. This makes it easier for many, especially those over 40.

The point about the ego is noted, and a dialog
with some Buddhists at Naropa shows Thomas Keating tends to see it in a similar way. My understanding
of mystical Christianity is a healing of the false self which brings one through neurotic attachments
to that self which the Divine Therapist uncovers.

http://www.innerexplorations.com/catew/cru1.htm

It's about 3/4 down the page; A Buddhist Christian
Dialog at Naropa. This seems one of the major tough spots in the dialog. "I don't think anymore, therefore IAM."

Chapters 5,7&8 of this book deal with Buddhism.

I intend to read through Arraj's Buddhism links and try to get a clue.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

quote:

In another exchange, Fr. Thomas Keating, one of the founders of the Centering Prayer movement, whose purpose is to renew the Christian mystical tradition, asked: "..when one has shed this ego-centeredness with its aggression and selfish self-seeking, is there not still an identity left, which may actually be very good?" The Tibetan monk Trungpa Rinpoche responded: "Well, I think now we have reached the key point. Egolessness means that there is no ego � at all."

MM, by no means am I a psychologist by trade (no more so than, say, a good bartender). But I wonder if the idea of "ego-centeredness" as the root of so many evils hasn't gone just a bit too far. It worries me because the opposite of centering on one's internal ego I think is often times centering on the pride and self-righteousness of "no-ego" or centering on someone else's ideas of no-ego and strengthening their ego but weakening one's own. This is in the context of what I consider the need to live healthily in one's own ego first before dispensing with it. I'm not sure that the multitudes out there who have damaged egos can repair the situation by jumping past some type of ego-centeredness and going straight to no ego. I think this often plays out as ego-centeredness anyway as we learn, gosh, just how enlightened some people are now. Thus you get stuff like this:

quote:

Trungpa Rinpoche: "Union with God cannot take place when there is any form of ego. Any whatsoever. In order to be one with God, one has to become formless. Then you will see God."

Note: I'm not saying a no-self orientation is bad or undesirable. I'm just giving what I think is an honest critique to this wholesale notion that tends to illegitimize individuality (capitalism) and sees only selflessness (socialism) as being unselfish. I don't agree.

And Trungpa Rinpoche was hardly without an ego! I've met a few of his former students, and although the guy was brilliant, he was apparently pretty disturbed, and known to be abusive with his students: active alcholic and a womanizer.

Even the late, venerated Kalu Rinpoche was guilty of exploiting his guru status for sexual favors with a student.

And so I agree with Brad. The dangers of deception are far greater when playing with ideas of ego dissolution than just living honestly as a person with an ego like everyone else. If devotion via grace and cultivating compassion dissolve the ego over time, then fine, but I don't think it would be such a heady affair under those more natural conditions.

http://abcdnet.org/christian.html

http://www.buddhist-christian-studies.org/

http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo...ristianbuddhist.html

http://membersaol.com/rbtjonas-int.html


Some links to peruse and ponder. More later.

caritas,

mm <*))))><

http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/dodger/chapter1.html

Ran across an interesting story about multicultural
cafeteria spirituality and the Christian way.

caritas,

mm <*))))><