(thread title change edit: 11-8-10)
I became involved in Isha Yoga, headed by Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, about five years ago. He was appealing to me because he is a humanitarian who leads projects providing for the needy. During an introduction talk he gave at Pfizer in Ann Arbor, he struck me as very down-to-earth, funny, and deliriously charming. He described his program as a ‘yogic science.’ The word science in the promo was appealing to me. Sadhguru conceives of God as the One, Formless Divine that can be found following any and all spiritual paths. The emphasis of this yoga is not on worship or devotion to a deity, but on a program of breathing techniques and postures. In fact, Sadhguru shared that he includes a brief, worship component in his seven-day intensive, but only because he feels the masses need to approach God with devotion as a kind of superfluous emotion. However, he is clear that God is quite impersonal and only changes names based on religious/ cultural preferences. His program is based on his giving seekers a specially tailored mantra. This yoga and mantra is designed to stimulate the kundalini upward—the goal being enlightenment or a permanent state of Samhadi.
I was happy to avoid anything that worshipped a deity, since I was burned by Goddess worship in my search for understanding kundalini. I was clear that Jesus was my Lord, but I didn’t see any harm in pursuing kundalini from a scientific point of view. I was under the impression that the energy of kundalini was the same things as the Holy Spirit. I knew that kundalini was real and since there was no bowing to deities involved, I guess I felt pretty safe being a kind of ‘investigator’ of the truth of what kundalini was all about. I approached this kind of yoga with great interest and curiosity. I soon learned that Sadhguru was a very powerful man with a huge following. During a seven-day intensive, he showed the audience pictures of himself in his previous lifetime. He shared that this was his third enlightened lifetime. In his previous lifetime he recalls his dying wish was to come back in order to bring enlightenment to the world. And this was his program. During the intensive, he divided folks into various groups, about three, sorted by some energy configuration he sees in the seeker. Each group met with him separately and he gave us a spiritually charged and secret mantra. This mantra is literally infused with his intentions to assist the seeker in reaching enlightenment through kundalini ascension.
Sadhguru shared with us that, as a matter of fact, he is actually able to put most people (by his estimate, “eighty percent”) into the state of Samadhi, at least for a short time. How does he do this? Just by his willing his energy to move the kundalini in the seeker, I gathered. But the goal was not short-term Samadhi, but to get people on an energy connection with him so as to reach Samadhi permanently through initiation. In my bedroom one morning shortly after the intensive, I had the experience of this immense, expanded bliss in which I felt like I was literally ONE with the universe. In this state, you literally have no need for anything. There is no right and no wrong, no good and no bad, there is just one mass of energy into which you melt. In this energy ‘soup,’ I had the thought: “Who needs Jesus!?” and as soon as I heard myself think this, I was struck with shame and the thing was gone.
It was some time after my experience with Isha Yoga that I came to feel Sadhguru was not ethical in his use of supernatural powers. At the same time, his intensive includes a lot of good, moral and spiritual teachings about proper detachment, loving all, and being responsible for your behavior. However, there's another level of ethics that is not usually considered by us ordinary folk, concerning supernatural power.
Sadhguru told a group of us that, years ago, while he was working vigorously to build his temple in India, he ‘called on’ various souls with specific energies to come into human form for the sake of assisting him with his mammoth project. I’ll never forget his words, nearly verbatim: “After all, you are playing with the very energies of creation. You must approach this with reverence.” Apparently, he thinks it is acceptable to violate the free will of souls, beings who are on their own spiritual trajectories, as long as one does so with reverence.
He also talked openly about his ability to seal somebody’s fate in terms of their spiritual development. He said that he strictly warns those in his ashram to avoid using whatever special powers they should develop under his tutelage. He was strongly against his pupils using healing gifts, for instance, that would come to them through kundalini ascension. I’ll never forget how he looked at us, an audience of about five hundred, and said in a rather threatening way that he would guarantee that those violators would never be able to progress spiritually, at least not in this lifetime! I certainly admire and understand the need to have clear boundaries with regard to the misuse of psychic powers, called siddhis, developed by seekers at your ashram. At the same time, is it not frightening that this man would himself wield immense supernatural powers to control the fate of others?
How did my involvement with Isha Yoga end? Something very unexpected and profound happened to me following my initiation. It was about one month post initiation, doing my daily breathing and mantra routine, when there was an announcement from Isha Yoga that there would be a special initiation which Sadhguru was intending to perform only for those sufficiently “advanced seekers.” I was very eager to rush into a deeper initiation, but a previous engagement prevented me from being able to attend this event. That night, however, I realized that I could ‘go’ to the initiation in my spiritual body. I don’t know what made me so sure of this, as I look back on that moment, but that was my crazy thinking.
However, something stopped me in my tracks that night, and I thought, let me pray about this. I prayed that if God, the Lord Christ Jesus, wanted me to go to this initiation, then He would let me go. If this was not His Will for me, I prayed, that I be kept from going despite my zeal. I felt out of control. I knew that if Jesus was, in fact, the same thing that this guru identified as the ‘formless divine,’ there would be no problem with my receiving this initiation. The next morning I awoke with a mysterious feeling of horror that I have never known! It was as if I had witnessed something during the night, and the words, “OH MY GOD!” gasped out of my mouth. I felt as if I had witnessed a profound, vicious battle, beyond anything my mind could grasp. It’s like a deep part of me saw something but it was too horrible to contain and carry into my ordinary consciousness upon awakening. Shortly after that morning, however, I lost all desire to continue this guru’s prescribed yoga.
I can only conclude that the Lord Jesus, did, in fact intervene to prevent me from further involvement in this energy. Some time later, I received a revelation that those connected with Sadhguru’s energy are in a kind of energy container, like a giant parabola-shaped field. In this container, the energy is so powerful and expansive that the inhabitants believe they are free, but they are not. Sounds weird, but that’s what I saw.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,
Thank you for sharing about this part of your journey, Shasha. I hope it will be helpful to others and that there will be good sharing about your learnings.
From what you share, it seems that Sadhguru Jaggi Vasude was working in a siddha-yoga like tradtion, as evidenced by his ability to arouse the kundalini in others through his own intent. This can usually only happen if the others have some kind of spiritual connection with the siddha master. In principle, I don't have a big problem with this so long as the philosophical or theological paradigm the yogi is truly God-centered and doesn't impose metaphysical or theological constraints on his or her disciples. From what you share, that seems to be part of the problem with his approach, hence the dream you shared in your closing paragraph. He also seems quite a bit into himself and his own specialness and power, which is problematic as well. I also think he's either a liar or exaggerator as I don't for one second believe that he can materialize souls from the spiritual world to take physical form again.
Kundalini is an energy of the deep unconscious dimension of the spiritual soul itself, and so one must be very careful about how this energy is awakened and integrated. I'm not doubting for a second that teachers from other religious traditions are adept at stirring this energy to life, but where it goes after that is where one must be very careful, as the energy will push its way through whatever doors in the body/mind are open. I believe it's in God's plan that this energy, if awakened at all in a person, ought to be directed by the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is the case with some Eastern teachers and their disciples, but it sure doesn't sound like it with what you describe. I get the sense that kundalini awakening was more about binding people to the guru in some kind of spiritual subservience than in liberating them unto service.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
... He also seems quite a bit into himself and his own specialness and power, which is problematic as well. I also think he's either a liar or exaggerator as I don't for one second believe that he can materialize souls from the spiritual world to take physical form again.
I don't think he was lying, but perhaps really believes he has this capacity. In either case, the fact that he would attempt to do such a thing speaks of a disturbing sense of entitlement and playing God. Plus there are the other threats of his wielding his power to control others.
So here we see again, supernatural power leading to self-aggrandizement (to the point of delusion) and this whole mess leading to unethical treatment of others. Same ole story, isn't it?
And yes, he'd consider himself a siddha master. During the intensive, he told us that he was quite a bit more adept than Muktananda, another self-proclaimed siddha, in reading the energy needs of his followers.
Here's a link to one of his websites: www.dhyanalinga.org
I read some of his Q&A sessions on the Isha Yoga website and on the above site; he certainly seems like a humorous, somewhat humble man at first glance. His answers to followers' questions were not profound, but neither were they 100% useless. And it looks like he's genuinely involved in humanitarian efforts. But, holy cow...or should I say, holy granite...he freely calls the lingam in his temple an idol and object of devotion, and says it's a living thing not much different than himself. And talk of self-aggrandizement--he claims they could have created a living human being instead of a granite living being. Dr. Frankenguru? It appears he's still the same as when Shasha heard him.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ariel Jaffe:
...he freely calls the lingam in his temple an idol and object of devotion, and says it's a living thing not much different than himself. And talk of self-aggrandizement--he claims they could have created a living human being instead of a granite living being....QUOTE]
I believe that huge lingam is alive, in a sense. It is infused with the energies he believes he has manipulated, but I think this thing is actually manipulating him.
To 'feed'/ create this thing, he spoke of recruting seven males and seven females, each representing the seven chakras to sustain it's power...or smt like that. He said this was very difficult to achieve as these 14 individuals had to be wholly dedicated or possessing special energies, and he was running into problems keeping volunteers. Eeek.
Also, I believe the parabola-shaped thing that I saw in my vision (described above) is the lingam itself. I had forgotton that I had made that connection at the time of the vision until just now that you remind me of the lingam.
What I saw was a giant energy field in which the guru was centrally an occupant, taking up a larger part, while his followers were like mini-energy orbs. They were all crammed in this thing. But the energy of this thing is so ecstatic, so free, mind-blowing bliss that they'd never know they were actually trapped inside and who would want to leave?
I used to know a woman who visited this temple/lingam. She described it as the most powerful ecstatic thing in her life. She said it was like pure love was coming out of it and proceeded to give her life to following this guru.
Thanks for the additional information from your experience, Shasha.
Here he talks about some of what you described: www.dhyanalinga.org/consecration.htm
And here he talks about the lingam being alive, and how they could have created a human "not born of a womb" to house the energies: www.dhyanalinga.org/difference_qa.htm
Shasha, do you have any thoughts on why she may have felt it was pure love coming from the lingam?
The power of human suggestibility?--the architecture of the place is undeniably evocative and well-done, and the ability of architecture to influence our perceptions shouldn't be dismissed. I'll very sheepishly admit feeling some ancient ruins I've visited in Wales had a magical atmosphere, having loved Welsh mythology before going to Wales.
Or deceptive "dieties", as Vasudev calls the energies he infused into the lingam? Or was it really love? For a number or reasons, the latter seems unlikely to me. Your vision of blissed-out but trapped followers makes alot of sense to me...though Vasudev seems to be an easily-likeable person and I feel sorry for him. I think he missed his calling to be an architect.
You do good investigative reporting, Ariel.
Here's Wikipedia's entry on the meaning of lingams.
I honestly don't know about lingams and other symbols being able to hold energies. Nothing science could pick up, I'm sure, other than the usual electro-magnetic frequencies.
Yeah, it's great to have you as our investigator...of sorts.
I think the "love" she experienced is a powerful energy. That's what samadhi is, an intense and addictive energy.
My spiritual director has advised me not to go further with talking about this. The thread can remain open, but I have to check out for the time being.
Understood, Shasha. I hope you're well.
As for my investigative reporting tendencies, well, I've only had my own computer for a couple of years---I used to use the library computers---and I'm like a kid who's never had electricity in her house before...switching lights on and off with amazement: wow! I can look almost anything up!!! An endless library! Don't worry, it'll wear off in a few years.
Yes, Ariel, I'm OK.
I did get hit with a strange pain/illness yesterday, which was weird cuz I almost never get sick. But as I was reading Padre Pio's biography last night, a Grace just fell on me and I recovered instantly. Love reading about him!
I think many Guru's are extremely knowledgeable with the K. But, the Kundalini can make people do things they don't even know why. For example, I have had people spontaneously react to me just walking by them. I didn't understand it at first. The K can affect those close to you too. They may say or spontaneously do things they never had before too. I too have done things spontanously or even had voices speak out of many different parts of the body.
The kundalini can make you pick up what is NOT your own stuff. But, these Gurus know that and know how to guard themselves from your stuff. That is indeed powerful knowledge and some don't have your best interest at heart. For many of them have trained on this force for almost an entire life time. It's good to be careful with them like anything else. They are human and many can make you feel this "bliss" or even "love coming from your heart" type of thing. But, I feel all spiritual gifts really originate from our loving Creator.
I have turned to looking at these gurus many times, because this experience has made me feel crucified, hell flames, and even see people appear right out of the bible speaking some other language right in my face. It is too much. I thought that I would rather die than experience all this. I honestly don't know why so many Gurus or even K. yoga classes are wanting people to get this. Surges are one thing, but getting a spirit spontaneously showing up trying to comfort you for feeling less than a rock is way too much. I don't even feel safe to drive with all that type of stuff most days.
I do feel that I can learn from them (Gurus) to help with this K experience, but I am a bit on guard. They don't share my personal feelings on Christ exactly and I don't want to be a "devotee". I want to remain me and not get lost in their belief system. It's hard very hard, because my k is very active.
Hi Healing Water,
It's good to 'meet' you. And welcome to Shalom Place. There are a lot of strange experiences that come with k, aren't there? I've heard of many people having extrasensory perceptions or a kind of porous boundary between them and others so that it can be very confusing about who you are and what are your own experiences vs. another's. And I hear you saying your very active k. might be causing you to seek counsel or help from gurus who may make things worse.
Feel free to share more about yourself, how you got started on your spiritual journey, how Christ fits into your walk, etc. It would be nice to get to know you, and maybe we can support your walk with God.
I hope and pray that you will receive the Father's tenderness, love, and protection.
I am very thankful to be here. I am finally a place that sees the cross in relationship to the K. Many are indeed very knowledgeable about the K in particular India, but it is still not totally understood in my opinion by anyone. For even Gurus or Buddhist can get serious problems from it.
Many Gurus do indeed have it & actively promote it like candy, but I have seen an aura on one and it was not white or clear. It was dark and morphing. I didn't understand what I was seeing till now. I would literally see this man's face turning colors. He face was turning weird shades of dirty greens and I didn't understand what I was seeing there till now. That's not the light of Christ at all. There was no pure white in him. He like many will even state - "Follow all the Masters." That is a direct contradiction to Christ. You can't follow all and have Christ. Christ did not state, "Follow all. By they way, follow me too." No, you can't do that. None of these people really teach about the cross in relationship to Christ. I hear Christ's teachings here and there, but not the cross and the resurrection.
The other thing with me is Mount Sinai. Yes, Mount Sinai stands out to me and they don't ever talk about what was taught to Moses and happened out there in that desert at all. For, some are still creating a Golden calf and offering food and bowing to it to this very day in their culture. Just bring up those teachings and look at what these Gurus have all around them. Now, don't get me wrong. I love these people as much as anyone and some do indeed heal with their K. and teach love. But, where is Moses in their teachings? Is there not a mountain in the desert that is burned? Where is their teachings on a man who died on a cross and rose from the dead not one day, not two days, but literally three days later? Who is that man to them? One of the many masters or so-called Avatars with them. That man is more than a living master and the evidence is overwhelming about that he was raised from the dead. Is their not a shroud of turin with the face of a crucified man that is thrown in the face of the scientist's so-called logic? How does this fit in with their vedas that they teach from daily to their devotees? There are some real serious contradictions and it stands out to me boldly. By the way, you can have the K and not believe in God at all. I have seen one man that is a Guru and has it. He does not believe in God at all. These people are being blessed by God with their spiritual abilities, but some will even state "God has no will". or demand you state Namaste instead of Shalom or Salaam. Yet, they say they are all religions and have put their ego on the altar. No, they have not killed their ego for God. They still have to do their "practices" to keep in their state with the "Is" or "it".
I do feel many Christian churches are tapping into the K and not realizing it is indeed the same thing as in the East. People will do all sorts of things with this. Speaking in tongues to me is defiantly the K. Personaly, I am getting experiences with literally other languages and don't know what I am saying. My desire is for many of these Christians to stop condemning the K to those who have it. You can be any religion on the face of this earth and get it. One doesn't even need to have it and can have a pure white aura from being a Christian. This is not simple. No two people may experience the same thing either with this. There are too many ways that it does activate and cause medical problems that many physicians are failing to treat with their potent drugs.
In relationship to the K and myself, I don't still fully understand when mine became active or what really set it in motion like it is now. I pick on way too many things to the point it has been at times torture. It's overwhelmed me. It has changed me physically down to even my hair thickness on my head. I can't eat the same things that I did. It is teaching me what can and can't be done in almost every single aspect of my life. I just had a storm go by and I literally felt like a bolt of some energy went through my head and I am feeling cool clean air all around me right this minute. I get so much stuff particular on anything spiritual regardless of religion almost daily. I have literally had some high priest with a prayer shawl get in my face to teach me things that No Christian is doing in relationship to Christ. It felt like a Rabbi from Hell at times about the teachings, but that Rabbi taught me how to not be fooled by those Gurus. These Gurus want you to just ignore all this. Yet, they use this very force from God to be in their spirtual practices, gain devotees, heal, and some a really large pay check. How can I ignore feeling a voice literally speak out of parts of my body saying biblical things as I even try to listen to these folks? It's like Christ is saying - YOU ARE MY SHEEP and I am not going to let you out of my hand just like the bible stated. He said, My flock hear my voice. Yes, that is a fact with the K. I have awakened with my hands raised to God praising him with some word that I had to write some Muslim in the Middle east to find out what I was even saying. How can I ignore this? It is changing how I see, feel, etc on so many things it is absolutely unreal. I get taught things about people in the bible and I can't find a resource on it or explanations about what many say is unknown. I just put it all away for now. I am trying to be in a spiritual bunker with this. It's way too much. I have just picked up the bible and it's like I am there hearing Christ speak in a foreign language. It was quite unsettling. I felt like my bible was possessed.
Greetings Healing Water,
It sounds like you're making some of the same distinctions between k process and Christian spirituality that I and others on this forum have given testimony to for quite some time (see the kundalini forum for much more discussion on all this). You can indeed be involved in one without the other, or both, and, as you noted, there's sometimes no understanding how or why the k process started up. In and of itself, I do not think it is evil, and can even be used by the Holy Spirit (along with our emotions and other energy processes) to guide and gift us.
People say all kinds of things about K, and there are indeed some false teachers out there. Don't let them upset you. Stay close to Christ and strive to determine the truth of something; that will stand you good stead.
Well that's an interesting point.
On the other thread, just a few days ago, pop-pop wrote:
Yet if speaking in tongues is a way of activating kundalini, then some Christians are being encouraged to pursue the kundalini experience, albeit without knowing it.
Author of The Phenomenon of Awakening
Re. "Speaking in tongues is definitely the K."
- I don't agree with this. There are way too many people who speak in tongues showing no signs of K awakening. Maybe it's there in a more gentle way and unobtrusive. In my own experience, K awakening came more from deepening contemplative prayer than with speaking in tongues, though I do think tongues contributed to the deepening of contemplative prayer. But, again, lots of people experience contemplative prayer without obvious K stuff.
One thing I can say from experience is that speaking in tongues helps to balance and order the K process. It also helps to open one to deeper prayer and even other charismatic gifts. I see no reason for caution regarding the gift of tongues. As a gift of the Spirit, it is a very good thing.
It is to my understanding there are levels of the K -surges to what is commonly described as full blown awakenings. There are many videos online illustrating how the Christians in certain demoninations are demonstrating what I feel is related to the k. They use the palm of the hand (like shakiti pat sp. in the Hindu culture) and touch the person or just wave their hand over crowds or just a single individual. The person spontaneously may or may not speak in tongues from the transfer of energy and/or even moves in convulsive movements. Many just passout with or without convulsive type of looking movements. Another way they may be getting these surges or is from hyperventilating from intense spiritual state. This is one of the many ways the K can begin by the breath pathways. I have seen Christians who got these experiences also left with full blown awakenings and are experiencing spontaneous writing, etc. Again, this is very individual (the levels of energy within and from another person). Let me clear, I don't want anyone to think that one will automatically get the K awakened from any of these techs.
In careful examining videos taken in India of K and in the some christians churches etc.the movement of the bodies appears to be tapping into this system of the K. Many Christians are noticing the same exact thing. In fact, I was reviewing one the day and I noted the Christian's lower back area moved in a bolted theme before they passed out and some pass out, appear to convulse and awaken to speaking in tongues in a bliss like state. Now, this could be what they call a surge of K. Surges of K may or not fully awakened, but they are appear to me to be tapping into the same energy. Yes, I know of pastors online who are able to speak in tongues at times they choose without these vibrations, getting visions, etc.
No, I am not saying speaking in tongues is a negative thing. Absolutely no. But, the levels of K activity are indeed very individual and some people know even know how to control their own and how to stimulate others energies. No two people are going to react to it exact same way. In fact, in India, there science of medicine recognizes the complexity of the K awakening with regard down to the body type. What I am saying is the K in my opinion is way more complex, but I still believe the speaking in tongues is a spirtual gift that is in some energic way is tapping into that same system of the K with or without what is considered the full awakening.
So in a nutshell, I feel even in what many consider the "dormant" state of K - there may be just a particular aspect of it that is operating on some level. I hope this makes sense. I feel it's connected to layers and parts of the brain that is not fully understood particular in our Western society. But, again, I am coming to this from what I am experiencing and observing in others. While even with myself, I am still sorting through my hx banks of what actually caused mine. It appeared on the surface to be spontaneous, but looking really carefully I am noting things were actually tapping into this energy as far back as 7 yrs of age. Therefore, I consider my genetic makeup (emotional/physical/mental) and particularly my history of experiences are relating to the present level of "advanced K" activity. My sibling who is a pastor does indeed have similiar gifts as me, but his K would be considered dormant on some level. So, there are levels of spiritual abilities, gifts, practices, genetic makeup and hx all connected to the level of K activity and what gifts and/or difficulties one may have with regard to it. Hence, there are those in the East who devote a tremendous amount of time with trying to get what many of us in the West are spontaneous getting & are not prepared on many levels.
Lastly, nutrition and even the earth's activity are connected to this as well. For many of the spiritual leaders in India are noticing a trend of a higher rates of spontaneous K awakening. This to me falls into that "pouring of the spirit" in the bible that is predicted. The earth is going through dramatic changes and it does affect humans down to their brainwaves. I can testify of that for right in the beginning of what I was noticing that frightened me was I was picking up on earthquakes and getting visions of awful things. I have spoken to Christians that don't claim to have fully awakened K or even know what it is and they are starting to see aura and lights. Some are claiming to feel the breath of God going thru the trees. It's the K, but they don't agree with me either. :-)
Thanks for the warm welcome, Phil. I am so glad to be here.
Hi Healing Water,
Thanks for opening up and sharing more about what has been happening to you. Some of your experiences are a bit concerning, like the one above. And I'm hoping that you are able to get some good spiritual direction so you don't have to be alone to discern through this. As you recognize the complexity involved in so many varied k experiences and supernatural phenomena, you probably won't find a single person who can perfectly understand or answer all your questions or address all your needs, but through prayer and surrender, I'm sure the Lord will lead you to the right person or people for help. He is your Shepherd.
I went though a short time when I was supernaturally connected to a group of k.-worshippers. It was a pit of chaos, delusion, and inadvertant contact with disincarnate spirits. I woke up speaking some weird language and discovered it was a kind of hindu/ urdu prayer. There was nothing holy about these experiences. So speaking in languages isn't necessarily the genuine, Holy Spirit gift of speaking in tongues. And if you're super-sensitive to other's energies merging into you, as it sounds like you may be, I'd be concerned about spirits or energies hanging onto you.
On the matter of speaking in tongues being kundalini-based, I also disagree. Though your sharing above on what you've seen in the Christian laying on of hands/ shaktipat is something I've seen a lot also, it may not warrant the conclusion that k. is always infusing/ generating the gift of tongues. When I pray in the Spirit, I sometimes feel a surge of k., and at these times I feel the Holy Spirit activating k. to do a kind of 'cleaning up' or 'straightening out' of the body/spirit interface to go deeper into whatever the Spirit wants to do. Other times, praying in tongues just comes over me, from outside so to speak, and has nothing to do with k (as far as I can tell).
If you've not noticed already, we do have some threads on a number of topics that you've brought up: healing, speaking in tongues, deliverance from evil spirits, as well as kundalini topics. Enjoy your stay with us...
God's love and Christ's peace,
Quick note here. I wanted to mention this in relationship to that "Is" or "it" thing with the more eastern religion theory. One can indeed get "it" and not be even in the heart center. I know someone that got the it and their mindset of what was just intensified. They were a socialpath and got "it". Then, they just stayed in that "it" mindset and thought there is just all layers of consciouness. Therefore, what they do here in this state of consciousness has no regard. But, there might be a Guru to argue with me on that point. I would say they do meditations to get in that heart center and get that level. But, again, someone can get intense level of feeling they had previous lives, etc and still be pathologic. I know first hand, because I lived with this person. "It" was a nightmare with someone on that level. There "it" experience was started almost in the exact way some Gurus claim they got the "Is" state. This person that I know got the "is" from basically what many would call a cult and got the "is" in less than 2 weeks. What they were stating and still on the level of a criminal was exactly the same themes of many new age, buddhist and hindu theories. One who went to the cult thing may get "It" or the "is" and come back and more loving person and other can get "it" and get that you are responsible if I hurt you, because this is just an illusion of the "is". Good night the human is complicated. Like some Buddhist or Hindus Gurus have indeed commited suicide for feeling they were nothing more than one with the "it" or "Is". Similiarly, this person that I know had people in the cult that thought they could breath under water for all this is just their consciousness of illusion type of thing. That's why I feel that cross is so important with all this mystical and levels of awareness.
Also, in relation to the K. The chi and K are similiar. So, if the k is so dormant or not awakened. Why then do children have a higher chi and some do see angels,etc? What I am saying is that K may not be so dormant as one thinks. Spiritual practices, diet, body type, nutrition and even what altitute you are living are all just some of the things that can effect it the level of K you are experiencing. I was strongly adviced by a Buddhist to stop all spiritual practices for what all I am getting. They are aware of the connection, but not exactly in the same manner as the Hindu.
That's my take on "enlightenment" also, that it's just energy that upholds expanded states of consciousness. That's why you can get enlightened gurus who are sociopaths, as you note. This problem is the singular most powerful support that enlightenment is not the pinnacle of spiritual development. Character change unto holiness is not something we can do without Christ, even if we can gain supernaturally infused love and bliss from heart-chakra openings. Whatever energy level of consciousness one achieves, we're still fallen, broken creatures, no matter what is going on energetically.
I'm sorry to hear you lived through that nightmare with that person. Do you feel you've been set free of all energetic connections with him/her and other possible means of contamination? You don't have to answer that here as I'm sure that's a private matter.
My parent went to a cult-like thing and got the "it". It was awful. He got even more of an ego and they claim you get less. They did tech. that induced it - deprived of bathroom priviledges, food, watches, etc. and they killed someway what he used to be. Similiarly, I saw a guru that said she had been having a really bad time with the K and was a Christian. She went to a guru and he slammed her ego with attacks in a similiar fashion and she was not able to speak for many days & became a guru. I actually feel bad for this guru, because I see so much of what my parent believed in her and both of them use to be Christian and now claim they are all. You can't be all on some level with the cross. I pick up many similiar themes. My parent just got "it" quicker.
Yes, I do believe there are indeed certain divine spiritual gifts that come only from the Christ and no other.
Hi Healing Water ---
Was that an est/Landmark sort of thing with your parent?
Yep and "it" was a nightmare and brought in a negative energy that literally shook a two story home with several witnesses. After the "IT" came in my home, even paranormal stuff started happening. That 'it' is a false teaching from the bowls of Hell. I went through Hell with "IT". My parent is still praising this path of nothingness and yet you have all balony.
Nevertheless, that "It" is now the "IS" and I am seeing it creeping into even the synagogues. For just last night, I got a newsletter from a Rabbi talking about the "IS" and "isness". The majority LOVED it and praised him. This man sounded like he took the very words of a Guru or some New Age preacher and pasted it to his newsletter and claimed he got the "IS". I heard it all as a kid. I replied and in summarized this concept. The Living God of Israel told man over and over - I conceived you and you did not conceive me and can't conceive me in anyway. You are dust and I created you. If I don't hold your body together, you will die getting even a taste of my essence. Mankind apparently requires many reality checks from the Almighty. Christ himself said, "Fear him (the Father)".
For those who are not familiar, here's a link with more info on EST. I hadn't heard that mentioned in years.
HealingWater, what I'm hearing is that the way your parents lived out IT or IS brought about lots of negative experiences in your life. It sounds like you're also equating it with something demonic. Have you ever visited a counselor about these experiences?
Re. the Rabbi and IS or even EST, the way I've understood this is that it refers more to enlightenment that the kind of love mysticism encouraged in Christianity. We've had quite a bit of discussion about enlightenment here, and, in general, I think it's usually a very positive experience for most people. EST was around for quite awhile and hundreds of thousands of people went through those workshops, most of them claiming to find something of value. No, it's not what Christian spirituality emphasizes, but that doesn't make it something bad or deceptive. I think it's where people go with what they experience, and that will depend on many things, none the least of which is their values and religious perspective (if any).
Does enlightenment open one to the demonic?
That's been suggested by different people at different times here, but I'm not so sure I'd consider it a dangerous or occult experience. I understand this (from personal experience and listening to what others describe) to be an awakening to our natural connection with everything . . . to one-ness. If that makes us more vulnerable to evil spirits, then I'm not sure why that's the case. What is it that's lost with enlightenment that supposedly protects us from the devil? I don't get it. When people pursue enlightenment by trying to negate their reasoning process, then, yes, that's dangerous, as it deprives us of the means of making distinctions and discerning truth. Also, seeking enlightenment through harsh ascetical practices is dangerous. But Christian mystics have been guilty of harsh ascetical practices as well.
So, again, what I'm hearing is that you've been hurt somehow by the way this IT and IS thing was lived out by your parents, especially in how it has affected your own spiritual development. It seems you're making good distinctions about all this now, but I agree with Shasha that spiritual direction could be helpful, along with counseling if you think you need it (maybe your spiritual director could help to advise about that). See http://www.sdiworld.org to find a spiritual director in your area.
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