Hi Morning Star --
Yes, Jesus did pray for us to have unity, and for that reason we are all needing to explore what we can do towards that end---however long it takes and however it might look...not what we make up, but what He really wants (whatever that is).
I'm going to later post that whole (short but rich) prayer that I found some months ago.
Luther said that one can be a Christian without coming under Church law. Paul claimed the same thing about Jewish law. The fathers of the Church agreed with Paul. Paul opened Pandora's box and Christian churches popped up everywhere and they hardly agreed with each other. The Catholic Church brought order to that mess. Luther also opened Pandora's box and fragmented Christianity again. We are now all still dealing with that mess and this conflict is chasing people away from Christianity.
"The peacemakers shall be called the sons of God." The question is, "How in Heaven are we suppose to do that?" I do not know, but the challenge is interesting.
Oh Kristi, absolutely no offense taken. Really!
By the way, Jacques, you asked about unbaptized infants earlier on.
I found this posted by Phil on the NDE thread years ago:
Today, the official position is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1261, which says: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism...."
I imagine this is is true for aborted babies as well.
Phil, Pop-pop, and others--
I'm still interested in continuing with where this thread was going. I'm having to spend my free time on the computer right now reading up on some gardening information, but I want to come back to this soon.
Phil, an administrator has to be somewhat linear about things or chaos reins. At the same time, you as an administrator are really open minded about things, if given a chance.
Being a bit linear as an administrator in a message board reality is actually a survival reality, if the message board is going to be a functional reality.
Ariel, just for fun and to bring things on track, where do you feel that this thread was going?
Oh and Ariel, I have a degree in Botany, can I help with some gardening tips? My problem is vermin I have the soil and the plants that will grow in my locality, but I have no idea what to do about the vermin that consider my garden animal welfare. I love Mother Nature, but living an the edge of the wild makes my garden a treasure to wild things .
I've been thinking about growing grapes for a number of years, but always decided against it. I already have fruit trees, lots of blueberry bushes, and a nice bed of strawberries, plus annual melon vines started in pots. Sounds like enough fruit to keep me busy growing already, eh?
So, anyway, here I finally bought some grape vines --maybe kind of foolishly, since I didn't read up on their care before buying them, and I know they need particular conditions, tending, and they have to be varieties suitable for one's area. From what I read so far, it looks like the varieties I bought will do well here in PA--I need to learn the right location for them, though, and learn how/when to prune them.
As for where I was going on this thread...I have several questions about Catholicism that I hoped to get input on from people here, since I know where they are coming from, sort of, and I don't feel comfortable with asking on Catholic Answers Forums--too many people with swordsmen for avatars there.
Thank you very much for that information on infant baptism.
about grapes, off the top of my head I would say that the only problem you might have is that a hard cold winter will kill them unless you plant the wild kind that grow on the east coast or some version of them. My suggestion if it is at all possible is that you talk to somebody that is successfully growing grapes in PA. It takes several years before they really start to produce and putting time and effort into something and it then just bites the dust can be somewhat heart braking. Books are ok but practical experience is best when it comes to growing grapes. They can be a bit tricky .
Discussing religion is another thing that is tricky . My dad once told me, "Son do not talk about religion or politics, talk about the weather."
you are loved,
I had to laugh at that, Tuck. Sometimes I would certainly agree with your dad!
I think my new vines will be cold hardy here--I did find the hardiness rating online for the particular varieties I bought. I'm in southeast PA, and there are large vineyards and wineries right in my neighborhood...so hopefully next year or so I should have a crop.
Tucker, what does "linear" mean, here? I'm not familiar with the use of that word in such a context.
Ariel, you wrote: .I have several questions about Catholicism that I hoped to get input on from people here . . .
We've all heard that before. Go ahead and start a new thread, if you'd like.
- - -
Re. this initial thread topic: I don't think it matters if one is sprinkled or immersed for baptism to be efficacious. I would be enormously disappointed if entrance into heave was predicated on one or the other, with angelic bureaucrats keeping score over this and other legal technicalities.
Well, I'd say, "Okay, I'll start a new thread on this topic" but I'm pretty sure I said that several times already, too. I think this time I will break with precedence and really start that new thread.
Things are the way that they are and no other way. I would have to say that rules are a linear reality when response to rules is predictable. To maintain order in a potently chaotic reality (any message board) being linear about the rules is absolutely necessary. IMO
Ariel, being the experienced gardener that you are I really do not expect you the have any problems growing grapes if winter is not a problem. With others doing it in your locality you are home free, all should be well.
Re. some of our earlier discussion, I found a good, short history of Orthodox Christianity at religionfacts.com (good name ).
Note, especially, the historical/cultural considerations and implications.
Thanks for the web address Phil, it is an awesome website!
Tuck et al, see also: http://www.religionfacts.com/c...ominations_stats.htm from the same site. Notes, especially, the Founders line on the table, and the Place Founded: the Orthodox stream is generally traced back to the re-location of the capitol of the Roman empire to Constantinople and the subsequent strengthening of Byzantine Christianity (4th C. onward).
Phil do you have a web address to a website where I can read some of the writings of the Catholic mystics?
Phil I read that part I also a while back read a book by a Catholic monk about the history of that time relative to Europe. It had a slightly different slant to it but the jist of it was the same. It is funny, I have been a Christian all these years and have never actually studied Christian history.
You can try www.ccel.org (Christian Classics Ethereal Library) for mystics. I haven't looked for that (mystics) at ccel myself, but I would think some would be on there.
Thank you Ariel!
Touching on the initial conversation about baptism again, how do you all see it linked to the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
I'm in a bit of a strange situation at the moment. I was born methodist and baptized as a baby. But rebelled (against Christianity, but not God) in my teenage years and gave up on Christianity. I explored Hinduism, Rastafarianism, Buddhism, New Age beliefs and spiritualism/occultism before coming back to Christ.
When I came back to Christ I found myself amongst baptists and charismatic, both of whom practice only adult baptism.
I decided I would like to be baptized as a public display/declaration of my rebirth. A few weeks before my baptism I was told that I could receive the Holy Spirit prior to baptism by being prayed for to receive baptism in the Holy Spirit.
I accepted the offer and after confession of all known sins past and current I was prayed for to receive the Holy Spirit. I had an experience of feeling filled with joy and began speaking in tongues and experienced a mild form of holy laughter - really just a little giggling at the sense of joy and happiness within.
All of this has left me a little confused since...I had actually been baptized as an infant, whether I had received the Holy Spirit then or not I don't really know, but I did wander away from Christianity for a few years, when I came back and was prayed for to receive the Holy Spirit I had a definite experience - but not even I could tell you whether it was THE definitive baptism in the Holy Spirit or something else - and then I was baptized again as an Adult believing I already had the Holy Spirit indwelling me.
Now that I have kids I didn't baptize them as infants, because I had adopted the view of the baptists and charismatics on adult baptism. (Though I had my eldest son dedicated to the Lord during a church service at our Vineyard Church.)
But I've been reconsidering lately.
My children, though young, have both been raised to know God. We pray together every night and God is central to our life as a family. The kids talk about God and Jesus as though they were as real as their mother and I. They thank God daily for the blessings and gifts of the day, pray for sick members of the family and acknowledge God as their creator and King (by saying He is the boss i.e. in charge of everything, whereas Dad is only the Boss of the family and Mom is co-boss with Dad and Boss when Dad isn't around - anyway back on topic...).
I'm thinking about baptizing the boys but I'm still unsure how I feel about it. I really understand the teaching of both sides of the debate and feel torn between, what appears to be, two valid understandings of baptism.
I also wonder about the Holy Spirit. Since I feel my boys have a relationship with God, albeit a childlike one, do they also have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. If they don't, will baptizing them give them the indwelling Spirit (then why did I have the experience all those years after my infant baptism), and what in the world should I tell them about all of this because the last thing I want to do is confuse them.
Thought, comments, I'm all ears
It's lovely to hear about how you pray with your boys and teach them about God. Children are so eager to learn about God and Jesus.
As they grow older, you can share with them that Baptisms are done differently across churches. In general, it seems a matter of personal faith and preference how you handle their Baptism(s).
I may have already shared that I went through a full-body baptism at the Vineyard Church a number of years ago as I was coming out of Eastern stuff. Like you, I decided to do this as a public declaration and commitment of my rebirth.
Even though I received an infant Baptism through the Catholic Church, I was drawn into Vineyard's teaching that electing to be baptized as an adult is an important step unto making a commitment of one's soul to God. For me, it was a powerful, unforgettable experience.
I had to write a Baptism statement about why I was doing this. I recall the Lord convicting me to completely remove from my heart all contempt for other religions and seekers. Honestly, since that day, and through Grace, I have had no contempt in this regard.
A strange thing happened that night. I remember sitting at the edge of the stage near the swimming pool that Vineyard brought out for my Baptism. Pastor Ken read a few paragraphs of my Baptism letter to the church. After reading about my leaving behind the Eastern path and returning to Jesus, he paused and said a few words about how God is a jealous God in the sense of wanting us fully committed to Him. Suddenly, as these words left Ken's mouth, I felt a searing white light cutting through me! It was God speaking to me when Ken said those words! A hot sword sliced through me and INTO some deep place that I did not know existed. It was literally as described in Hebrews 4:12. This light released hot tears, a kind of holy grief I have been blessed to experience from time to time.
About two days after my baptism, I felt mightily moved to take major steps that would change my life in a direction that I had procrastinated about and avoided for about 8 years! Boom. I was roaring with initiative and courage. All hesitation, every obstacle torn down. I felt 'set free' following my water baptism at Vineyard.
I don't think Baptism is necessarily an either/or, infant/adult type of thing. At times it can be a both/and experience. In terms of when do we receive THE Holy Spirit, I think it's all of the above...This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha,
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