Israel and Church

02 August 2006, 09:35 AM

Grace

Israel and Church

As you know there are two different schools namely dispensationalism and covenant theology regarding Israel and Church. The former believe in the future plan of God for Israel while the latter believe Israel is the spiritual Church. I'm a little bit puzzled by the following quote from the Rock:

quote:

The Catholic Church is able to acknowledge the truth that is found in both positions. Along with the dispensationalists the Church acknowledges that God does still have plans for the Jews as a unique people (Catechism of the Catholic Church 674). Paul clearly indicates this in his writings, especially in Romans 9�11, where he indicates God continues to fulfill his promises about the Jewish people by preserving a remnant of Jewish believers in Christ (11:1�5). This indicates a special place for Israel, for no other people has a promise that there will always be a believing remnant. God also has future plans for the Jewish people: One day the Jewish people as a nation will return to Christ, and this will be one of the signs of the Second Coming and the resurrection of the dead (11:12, 15).

On the other hand, along with covenant theologians, Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the "new Israel" (cf. CCC 877). This too is indicated in Paul�s writings: In Romans 9:6 he says that "not all who are of Israel are Israel." This indicates the existence of two Israels. One�"all who are of Israel"�indicates the ethnic people, not all of whom believe in Jesus. The other Israel, the context reveals, does not include those who have rejected the Messiah. This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints and so counts as a "spiritual Israel." It includes Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and so through baptism are spiritually circumcised (Col. 2:11�12) and are reckoned as spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:26�29). Excerpted from the following link:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp

Does the Catholic Church really believe in these two opposing theologies?

08 August 2006, 06:06 PM

Grace

Phil, what is the official position of the Catholic church on this issue?

08 August 2006, 06:19 PM

Phil

The quote you posted is pretty much what I've heard taught, Grace. The conflict comes under the title of supersessionism, and it's not one that interests me much. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism for more info, including a good discussion of the Catholic position.

02 September 2006, 06:28 AM

wopik

Grace

quote:
This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints.....

Grace, as part of this continuity, spiritual Israel will be keeping the LORD's Seventh day Sabbath and "holidays of the Bible" - just as our predecessor Saints (the people of God).

http://www.intercontinentalcog...GCC/Lesson_Ten.shtml

02 September 2006, 09:26 AM

Jacques

You should add however wopik that this is according to a messianic understading of Christianity and not orthodox teaching.

02 September 2006, 05:27 PM

wopik

quote:
You should add however wopik that this is according to a messianic understading of Christianity and not orthodox teaching.

Jacques, quite right.

The jewish Apostles of Jesus saw Him as the Messiah, and therefore, perpetuated the Sabbath observance and "holidays of the Bible" - as is evident in the pages of their writtings.

30 September 2006, 06:14 AM

wopik

quote:
Jacques

a messianic understading of Christianity

Obedience is the only reliable evidence of faith.

When questioned about the way to eternal life, the Saviour referred his enquirer to obedience. Matt.19: 16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:
but if thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

Salvation is offered through Abraham's seed - Jesus the Saviour. Are you willing to accept salvation?

Obedience demonstrates how alive and active your faith really is. Obedience is faith in action. Are you endeavouring to be obedient?

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/s...snotes/note1105.html

30 September 2006, 06:39 AM

Jacques

Yes, but I am not sure that you can argue for the letter of the law, but definately the spirit of the law.

As James says, faith without work is dead. We must follow the commandments. To love God and love others, without this our faith is useless.

30 September 2006, 04:16 PM

wopik

Jacques,

wouldn't one have to know and obey the letter of the law in order to know and obey the spirit of the law?

in other words, one does not just commit no adultery (letter of the law), but he also does not even let his mind think about doing it (spirit of the law).

To me, its like a progression.

quote:
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." - Romans 7:7

01 October 2006, 03:29 AM

Jacques

I must be honest wopik, I am not sure that that is the way to understand it.

It might be wopik, I will admit that, but I hope that you can also admit that it might not be.

I do know though that the law was heavy and the spirit is light. Love God and Love others, there are ways to do this that do not exist in the law and ways that do, I think it is the loving that counts not the law!

01 October 2006, 07:09 PM

<w.c.>

Ok wopik, you're done here on this thread until Phil arbitrates. As he said on another recent occasion, your incessant preaching won't be allowed. So I've deleted your last post, and have emailed Phil asking him what he wants to do about your unwillingness to respect what has already been asked of you.

02 October 2006, 08:55 PM

wopik

My last post was a Scripture quote only.

Are you deleting Scripture now?

03 October 2006, 01:00 AM

<w.c.>

Wopik:

You throw scripture around like a wrestler throws his weight around in the ring. Jacques gave you a reply that was quite personal, and true to form you turned around and dumped on him, in the name of inviolable scripture, of course, not unlike the Pharisees. You do this repeatedly, and it's the kind of behavior that won't fly around here, and you know it and have known it for a long time. So drop the coyness.