01 December 2001, 08:49 PM
PhilSpirituality & Hunting Season
Indeed there is much evidence to support the fact Jesus was a vegetarian, allthough it has been supressed by the church for years.Evidence please?
I'm just not aware of the great vegetarian debates that have ever shaken Christendom and give your conspiracy theory on this one about one in a million chances of being true.
JESUS was from Nazareth, and all the citizens there were vegetarians.Evidence? Especially since several of his discipes were fishermen, and Jesus was very well acquainted with the ways of shepherds and sheep.
From the bible;
disciple "Master if there come to us any that eat flesh shall we recieve them "?
Jesus " Let such abide in the outer court till they cleanse themselves from these grosser evils for till they percieve and repent of these, they are not fit to recieve the higher mysteries"That's not in the Bible.
Calvin, you seem to have a big need for Jesus to be a vegetarian, and I'm wondering why? And even supposing he was (which I doubt), there's no doubt that the early Church permitted meat-eating, and that's before things like a censoring Magisterial hierarchy could have been involved somehow (which I also doubt).
Why not just state the advantages of vegetarianism without all the conspiracy theories about Christians? That would be more effective.
Phil
02 December 2001, 07:00 PM
Calvin4[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
[QB]
Indeed there is much evidence to support the fact Jesus was a vegetarian, allthough it has been supressed by the church for years.Evidence please?
YES I WILL INCLUDE THE EVIDENCE BELOW, I HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING THIS SUBJECT WITH PEOPLE FOR YEARS, ALLTHOUGH YOU MADE A GOOD REPLY, I HAVE HEARD IT ALL BEFORE, SO I WILL TRY AND ANSWER AS BEST I CAN, AND SUPPORT MY STATEMENT WITH FACTS.
I'm just not aware of the great vegetarian debates that have ever shaken Christendom and give your conspiracy theory on this one about one in a million chances of being true.
From the bible;
disciple "Master if there come to us any that eat flesh shall we recieve them "?
Jesus " Let such abide in the outer court till they cleanse themselves from these grosser evils for till they percieve and repent of these, they are not fit to recieve the higher mysteries"That's not in the Bible.
WELL THIS WAS TAKEN FROM THE ESSENE NEW TESTAMENT, WHICH WAS TAKEN FROM THE BIBLE, TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING FIRST YOU HAVE TO COME TO THE LOGICAL CONCLUSION THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN DRASTICALLY ALTERED AND CHANGED, ALLTHOUGH SOME OF IT HAS BEEN LEFT INTACT.
Calvin, you seem to have a big need for Jesus to be a vegetarian, and I'm wondering why? And even supposing he was (which I doubt), there's no doubt that the early Church permitted meat-eating, and that's before things like a censoring Magisterial hierarchy could have been involved somehow (which I also doubt).
Why not just state the advantages of vegetarianism without all the conspiracy theories about Christians? That would be more effective.
WELL I'LL BE DISCUSSING BOTH SUBJECTS, WHAT IS COMMON SENSE TO ME IS MAY BE A LITTLE HARD TO COMPREHEND FOR SOMEONE NEW TO THE SUBJECT. HERE IS A GREAT EXCERT TO SUPPORT WHAT I AM BASICALLY STATING -
excert from document on the ESSENES...
When the soldiers of the Roman Emperor "Constantine
the Great" were sent to confiscate all copies of the
original Essene-Christian New Testament (Constantine
had forcibly seized control of the Christian Church,
changed the manuscripts, and created a State-run
religion), some brave Essene-Christian monks went to
India and deposited a copy of the authentic
Essene-Christian New Testament in the Mystery School
library of a Buddhist monastery. (Several centuries
later the manuscript was moved from the Indian
Buddhist monastery to a monastery in Tibet.) IT WAS
THAT MANUSCRIPT -- The Gospel of the Holy Twelve THAT
WAS TRANSLATED BY REV. GIDEON JASPER OUSELEY IN THE
1880's. The Gospel of the Holy Twelve IS THE AUTHENTIC
NEW TESTAMENT OF JESUS, the version that existed
before the manuscripts were tampered with. It includes
many of the New Testament stories and teachings modern
Christians are familiar with, BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES
MANY IMPORTANT TEACHINGS OF JESUS WHICH WERE LOST FOR
NEARLY 2,000 YEARS, such as: VEGETARIANISM,
REINCARNATION and the FEMININE ASPECT OF GOD.
Rev. Gideon Jasper Ouseley, translator of The Gospel
of the Holy Twelve, was born in England in 1835 and
died there in 1906. Having discovered the manuscript
via direct help from Christ Jesus and holy angels (the
description of that blessed help is provided in our
Mystery School Lessons), Rev. Ouseley translated it
over a several year period in the 1880's. Rev. Ouseley
was not only a GREAT SCHOLAR, he was also DEEPLY
SPIRITUAL: like the ancient Essenes, he was vegetarian
and abstained from both alcohol and tobacco, and spent
several hours each day in prayer and meditation. He
once said, "the direct cause of poverty, bad health
and social misery is flesh-eating, alcoholic drinking
and tobacco smoking." He said that "the abolition of
flesh-eating is the only effectual means of the
world's redemption, whether as regards men themselves
or the animals." In our day, recent books like Diet
For a New America, by John Robbins, have proven Rev.
Ouseley to be correct. But in his own day, Rev.
Ouseley was severely persecuted for his beliefs. He
was forced to leave the Church of England -- in which
he was an ordained priest -- after he released his
translation of The Gospel of the Holy Twelve. Several
attempts were made to assassinate him. His house was
twice set on fire. People often threw rocks at him.
But he bravely continued to preach and teach about the
Essene Jesus, and to circulate The Gospel of the Holy
Twelve.
Now some words in regard to another holy scripture of
Essene Church of Christ: THE ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE (a
four-book-set). Dr. Edmond Bordeaux Szekely was chosen
by Christ to bring to light The Essene Gospel of
Peace. In the early 1920's, while doing research in
the secret archives of the Vatican, Dr. Szekely
discovered ancient Essene manuscripts. Much to the
dismay of the Vatican (the Vatican is the seat of
authority of the Catholic Church), Dr. Szekely refused
to keep quiet. He published the Essene manuscripts in
a four book set titled, The Essene Gospel of Peace.
When Dr. Szekely published the Essene manuscripts he
had discovered, HE WAS BANISHED BY THE VATICAN AND ALL
OTHER ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN AUTHORITIES. Why? Because
they don't want their comfortable boats rocked by the
radical waves of the Essene Jesus! Can you imagine the
orthodox authorities trying to explain to their
congregations that Jesus was a vegetarian and taught
reincarnation?
02 December 2001, 10:04 PM
Phil . . . Why? Because
they don't want their comfortable boats rocked by the
radical waves of the Essene Jesus! Can you imagine the
orthodox authorities trying to explain to their
congregations that Jesus was a vegetarian and taught
reincarnation?Of course! What else could have possibly motivated the Vatican except power, security, and other malevolent motives?
Now Calvin, I've read your posts, visited the web sites you referred us to, and am definitely not convinced. Please recall the point I made several times, which is that the early Church had no restrictions on meat-eating (and no teaching on reincarnation). None of the writings of the early Fathers (pre-Constantine) mentions either the mandate to vegetarianism, and the discussions on reincarnation by Origen were never really accepted.
The writings of the Essenes have certainly not been banned; they're part of the Dead-Sea Scrolls, which have been heartily accepted and studied by the Church. In my library, I possess a collection of all the writings of the early Church, including all the early gospels--apocryphal and canonical. There is no gospel of the Essenes listed, and none of the other early gospels say anything about vegetarianism or reincarnation. All pre-dated Constantine. Some were discovered only last Century.
You must understand that Christianity is and always has been more than what any of its books report about it. Prior to any written tradition, there is the lived experience of the Christian community and its oral traditions, out of which come the writings. There is absolutely nothing in this oral tradition about mandatory vegetarianism nor reincarnation. There is also no record anywhere of this having been repressed.
Rejections of teachings like reincarnation do not constitute repression of something Jesus taught, but a sense by the Christian community that this teaching doesn't mesh with what Jesus taught or intended.
So, there you have it; I can't make it any clearer. What you're implying, of course, is not only that you think vegetarianism is a good thing, but that Christians are somehow unfaithful to the teaching of Jesus for not promoting it. This just can't be supported, and blaming the Vatican for supposedly repressing material that qualifies your position doesn't cut it either.
Your persistence in this is starting to feel like a kind of judgmental proseletizing. I don't really want that kind of thing going on here.
Phil
03 December 2001, 07:47 PM
uraqtCalvin,
Thanks for coming over to sp to share your views about Jesus and vegetarianism. I have been reading much of the url you mentioned about Essene Fruitarianism of Jesus. I don't think you are proselytizing. Phil asked you for evidence and I think you did your best to provide it. Thanks for the quotes, too.
I went to askjeeves.com and posed the question: "Was Jesus a Vegetarian?" and came up with some interesting links, including one with the same title as my question. Anyone interested in this discussion might want to check them out.
I understand how you could feel upset about Christians. If you have listened to Pope John Paul II, you will hear him apologizing for our
misdeeds. From Galileo to Bruno to
Joan of Arc to the inquisition to the witch trials and on and on, you will see that we, like any other group or religion, have our problems, too. However, most of us are not intolerant bigots who try to shove our perspective of reality down the throats of others.
As far as your fruitarian url goes, I found some positive and negative points. I do not think that just becoming a vegetarian automatically brings one into divine communion with God. I also don't think it makes one more evolved or puts one above others in any way. I didn't like the part where the author was emphasizing the ecstatic gifts (siddis like clairvoyance, etc.) that one receives as one becomes closer to the realization of divine union.(p.9) Most religions say it is far too easy to get caught up in those gifts and loose sight of the goal.I tendtothink service to others is more indicative of divine union.
I liked the emphasis on compassion and found nuggets of truth that fit quite well with things I've learned in Christianity.
For me, the danger of both sides of this issue is when people refuse to let it be open-ended, without a definitive answer. I'm reading material on both sides that is quite thought provoking.
Thank you Phil for the space to discuss this issue. Thank you Calvin for presenting an opposing viewpoint.....and thanks to everyone who has contributed to this interesting discussion.
qt
03 December 2001, 09:50 PM
Calvin4Uraqt thanks for your support. The following is a famous story put forth by Prabhupada, a great spiritual leader. The general moral here is that most people can only relate to thier own terms and have difficulty relating to things outside their known field. Enjoy !
The analogy has been given of Dr. Frog. A frog often lives in a well. The well is one meter wide, it's in the middle of a field and above the well is a tree. Our Dr. Frog has spent his whole life in that well. He has no experience beyond that one meter diameter well. But he has seen so much through the hole in the top of his well! Sometimes he sees nice blue sky and trees with green leaves, sometimes he sees clouds in the sky, sometimes rain comes through the top of his well, sometimes the leaves from the tree fall into his well. So Dr. Frog has experienced many things, he's seen so much. As a result of all of his observation he has been able to come up with his own particular universal view, "The universe according to Dr. Frog." He doesn't know there is any more than he has seen. He has only seen what is visible through the hole in the top of his well, so he thinks that's all there is, he thinks that's the universe. He has developed so much philosophy, so many theories to describe what is happening in his universe. But what can he see? So what is the value of his conclusions? His conclusions are useless. The difficulty is if somebody comes from outside to tell him about the actual universe he won't be able to understand it because it's outside the scope of his world.
One day another frog hopped into Dr. Frog's well. This frog had not been confined to a one metre wide well for his whole life, he had travelled quite a bit, he'd even seen the Pacific Ocean. So he tried to explain to Dr. Frog, "My dear friend, I have seen such a vast mass of water, it is called the Pacific Ocean." So Dr. Frog said, "Yes. Please explain it to me." But he was thinking in terms of the water in his well, so he thought, "Perhaps it's twice as big as my well, perhaps three times as big as my well, maybe it is even five times bigger." In this way he tried to understand the Pacific Ocean but it was impossible because he can't even conceive of the greatness of the Pacific Ocean.
Our scientists are something like Dr. Frog. They are confident they have a clear understanding of the universe around them. After all they have such big expensive equipment, they get so many big grants from the government and they have so many respectable predecessor scientists who have put forward so many nice hypothesises which they now accept as facts. They think they are well situated, but what have they seen? We know this planet is only one of so many planets in the universe. Even within this universe we are insignificant. The creation of the Supreme Lord consists of not just one universe but of unlimited universes. In the Vedic literature the number of universes is compared to a bucket full of mustard seeds. If you look at a mustard seed you will find it is a very small seed. A whole bucket of mustard seeds is a huge quantity, millions and millions. So universes are clustered together like this and our planet earth is only one tiny fragment of one of the smallest universes. But our "Dr. Frog" scientists think they understand how things are going on. They think one day they will be able to control everything. One day they will be able to make it rain when they want, they will make man live forever, they will be able to do anything they like. However, in reality, their knowledge is comparable to Dr. Frog's knowledge of his universe. Of course there may be some glimmer of truth in some of the scientific theories but they are all full of defects: the tendency to make mistakes, the tendency to cheat, the problem of being illusioned and the difficulty of the senses being imperfect. These defects are present in all of our so-called scientific theories.
Calvin
03 December 2001, 11:11 PM
Phil THE INFO ON THE EARLY CHURCH SUPPORTING VEGETARIANISM WAS SUPPRESSED IN A WAY A NEWCOMER LIKE MYSELF IS BEING SUPPRESSED. NOW IF I HAD THE TIME I COULD WREAK HAVOC HERE LIKE I HAVE DONE ON OTHER BOARDS, BUT I'M BEING NICE. SO HERE IS SOME INFO TO SUPPORT WHAT YOU ARE ASKING -Calvin, I hear your threat and am warning you that I ban people who "wreak havoc here." I see in your profile that you list yourself as a "terrorist." If you've come here to disrupt, then know that this gives little credibility to the points you're trying to make: "Jesus the peaceful vegetarian," whose cause is being furthered by a cyber-terrorist! Fine day! I might mention that your IP address has been logged with each of your posts and I've written them down. You're not as hard to track down as OBL.
Please note that your posts have been left intact. Those who wish to further pursue what you've proposed have the resources you've recommended. As you've published no email address, they can send you private messages if they want to dialogue with you. All fine with me, and I wish you the best with it.
I'm closing this thread, however, as it's become a pointless discussion in which one is asked to give equal footing to esoteric/occult resources and the Bible/Church teaching. Sorry, but those "rules for engagement" are untenable.
Phil