We've had lots of discussions on Christian spirituality in comparison to enlightenment pathways. Try the following:

- http://shalomplace.com/ubb/ult...;f=1;t=000132#000000

- http://shalomplace.com/cgi-bin...;f=2;t=000148#000000

There's also a lot about this in the innerexplorations.com web site.

Yes, yes, yes, precisely...preach it, brother...

After reading that first link, I have to say WOW, Phil, I didn't know we thought so much alike on this topic!

Am I turning into a Phil or are we converging on the some truth?

So wonderful! Now I can call it a night!

Hello Shasha:

My comment to Phil was in regards to his mentioning that there
is a form of non-duality within Christianity not Eastern religions.

As i mentioned i've been reading Matthew Fox's book on Compassion
the past few days. Half of one book doesn't show me a whole picture
of course. Especially one written almost 30 yrs. ago. I'm sure he's
undergone much change in that period of time. But from what I am reading
about his understanding of compassion (which includes love) he's coming
from a place i know as non-duality. Matthew Fox uses the terms dualism
and dialectic, but i read that after i posted my last response. So i may be incorrect in using
the term non-duality, as i understand it, till i've read more of his work.

When i think of the word holiness i associate it with the RC Church. They
decide what is holy according to their understandings. And apparently they
didn't think the direction Matthew Fox was heading was, so they dismissed
him.

I spent my early childhood years with ministers and a church setting that believed
that children needed to have the fear of G*d instilled in them. And in later yrs. tried
many Christian churches local to me. Their words seemed a little softer but the
underlining message of fear hadn't changed. What i came to understand was that
those ministers, in their own way, felt that their expression of fear was an expression
of G*d's love.

Now comparing that to what Matthew Fox is calling compassion, which includes love, is
something very different. If he were in my area i wouldn't hesitate to attend his services.


Ajoy

Dear Ajoy,

Oh, now I see more what you mean...sorry about the misunderstanding.

I've known others who have felt stung by early fear of God training. To them, this was a love-less climate and they felt God and the church to be quite inhospitable as a result.

Perhaps you can share more about how your path resonates with the teachings of Matthew Fox if you want. And/or I'd be interested in knowing whether you feel that fear has any place at all in relation to our spiritual development. Perhaps another thread could be started.
------------------------------------------------

Dear Heart Prayer,

If you're intersted in continuing discussion about enlightenment and Christianity, maybe we could pick up on that first link that Phil provides above, Enlightenment and Christian Spirituality. Or maybe you were interested in something else I said in my post?

much love to you all,
in Christ,

Shasha

Hello Phil and Shasha:

Shasha i would be interested in discussing Phil's
booklet entitled "On Christian Enlightenment".
That is with Phil's permission and if this has not
already been discussed on the threads that Phil
posted on Enlightenmnet yesterday. I haven't had
a chance to read much of those threads yet to know.

Phil this was a great piece of writing. And i'm
experiencing a deep gratitude to you for
putting your experiences and understandings of Christian Enlightenmnet in writing. This is the first time i have seen it written within Christianity. And as you
mentioned that "you see no reason for a person of Christian faith to denouce Eastern experiences of enlightenment." And that you see no conflict between the 2 states.

Ajoy

From Shasha: Am I turning into a Phil or are we converging on the some truth?

Ha. I've been reflecting on the enlightenment/Christian spirituality issue for a long time -- at least 25 years. Some of the impetus to do so comes from my own experiences, and from just wanting to better understand what's going on.

- - -

Ajoy, I'm glad you enjoyed the eBooklet on Christian Enlightenment. I do believe there are a variety of non-dual experiences, so it's maybe too general to speak of unitive experiences. Even in the Christian mystical literature, one finds a variety of unitive states described. So long as we don't deny the reality of a distinction between the Creator and the creature, we're somewhere on the Judeo-Christian "map."

Re. Matt Fox. There were lots of problems with his situation, none the least of which his unwillingness to be a "team player" with his own religious order, the Dominicans. His theology was mostly OK, although he does seem to be "down" on fall/redemption theology. His employing a self-professed witch at his creation spirituality center also didn't win many votes from more orthodox Christians.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:


- - -

So long as we don't deny the reality of a distinction between the Creator and the creature, we're somewhere on the Judeo-Christian "map."

*****
Ok, thank you for that understanding.
Ajoy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shasha:
[QB] Dear Ajoy,
Perhaps you can share more about how your path resonates with the teachings of Matthew Fox if you want. And/or I'd be interested in knowing whether you feel that fear has any place at all in relation to our spiritual development. Perhaps another thread could be started.
------------------------------------------------

Hello Shasha:

Gave myself a couple days to sit with your comments. Your question about fear within spiritual development has been a really interesting question for me. Fear is part of the human condition. However when religious practices and beliefs are used as a way to produce fear it is another issue.

It would be something i'd like to discuss. It is likely to be a slow process for me. I need to read through Christian Mysteries first.

So, for me some of the conclusions Matthew Fox has arrived at are some that i have also come to.

Also Shasha, if you are experiencing fear in regards to your experiences of the Eastern religions i am open to discuss this also.

Thanks
Ajoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Fox

Just catching up on this very active thread, and having no experience with Fox, prefer to listen.

Thanks!

Dear Ajoy,

I have to give myself some time, too, to think /feel my way around this issue of whether fear has a place on our spiritual paths. The 'new age' mentality seems to outright denounce all fear as oppositional to spiritual growth, there is nothing to fear, etc.

But what about discerning decieving spirits? and the development of morality? Aren't there healthy forms of fear? Is it possible?

Anyway, I'm not yet so moved to initiate a new thread on this subject at this time, but would join a discussion if anybody else wanted to.

much peace to you all,
in Christ,

Shasha

hi

please redirect me if this is an innapproriate thread. more questions!!!

today I attended a 7th day adventist church, it was v inviting and welcoming. I was not really aware of heir specific take on things but the speaker talked about the emerging church movent and why he thought it was unsound. what are people thoughts on this?


secondly this is the text from part of a q and a section from a 7th day adventists website...

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

25. Second Coming of Christ:
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)

26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

28. New Earth:
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)


I am a bit confused as to this idea of a sanctuary being created now which seems to be a bit like the jewish tabernacle but bigger! hmmmmmmmmmmmm

rachel, I'd suggest you copy this material and paste it into a new thread on the Christian Morality and Theology forum. Entitle it something like "Questions about Seventh Day Adventist teachings" and we can take it from there. This thread is mostly focused on the uniqueness of the Christian message and its relevance today.

Once you do this, I'll delete the thread above and respond to some of your questions on the new thread.

Thanks. Phil

For me growing up as a fundamentalist and becoming involved with post jesus hippie groups as a young person I never saw a true alternative to Christianity. I also never really came in touch with liberal christianity except in books. The older I become the more convinced I am of Christianity and my own ignorance. My addictions and personal issues drove me into liturgical Churches and finally to Rome. Christianity is so wide and comprehensive even within catholicism. I guess when we realize the Church is the people human beings fallible and broken then it changes are prespective. Growing up in The Baptist Tradition I saw abuse including sexual abuse, verbal and physical violence etc. Forgiveness and change does not come through anger but for me it has come through looking at Christ his love and healing. For me this happened within catholicism for others it happened in other denominations.