Welcome, George. Thanks for visiting and taking the time to post.

You write of millions of other Christian-instigated injustices. Maybe just a tad overstated?

It's important to make a distinction between the Christian message and how it's been lived. Granted, there's supposed to be a connection, but not necessarily so. Sometimes things have been (and still are being) done in the name of Christianity that are merely justifications for other agendae -- often political in nature.

Also, one must ask if these blemishes on Christian history are definitive, or the exception. I would say the latter; my guess is you wouldn't, correct?

George:

Along with Phil's comments, it's important to remember that every religion co-opted by a political process is going to evidence human weaknesses, notwithstanding Buddhism and Hinduism, the favorite default categories of New Agers who like to think of religious authenticity as sqeaky clean. If we could find a radical exception to this, then we might be able to isolate what made one religion more resistant to violent human tendencies than the rest. But we simply cannot. Buddhists and Hindus and Sufis have all committed their atrocities. My concern isn't simply with this inhumanity, but why Christianity, for those with a western background, takes such center stage when the accusations are made; it doesn't seem to be mainly from trying to keep one's own house in order, but to disparage something without having to invest enough to really understand it.

quote:

My concern isn't simply with this inhumanity, but why Christianity, for those with a western background, takes such center stage when the accusations are made; it doesn't seem to be mainly from trying to keep one's own house in order, but to disparage something without having to invest enough to really understand it.

That's a great concern and eloquently spoken.

Thank you Phil for your interesting response.

That is true that most religions have their blemishes. However, Jesus makes extremely ambitious claims regarding his goals for mankind. Among these is creating peace on earth, and instilling tollerance among believers. I think we can all agree that this has not come to pass.
The point was made that this has been caused by flaws among man, rather than the prophit. However, Jesus was well aware of man's flaws. It seems unreasonable that Jesus would not have been more responsive to these faults and taken them into account when he made his proclaimations.
True -- one must not interpret the misdeeds of a few Christians as a judgement on the entire Christian religion. However, how many wars, genocides, and other injustices are permissable before it reflects on Christianity? When there have been hundreds of violent struggles between people professing faith to an identical bible and faith, it makes you wonder Jesus actually intended his word to be "divine."

George:

You may want only Phil's response, but I'm giving mine since you're assessments seem out of step with most critical, biblical scholarship.

Jesus didn't push his disciples toward the goal of peace on earth. In fact, this was something he had to work very hard to get the disciples to see, i.e, that he wasn't the kind of messiah they were expecting, and that his ministry was one wherein "the poor you will always have with you." The peace Jesus offered was one that occured through internal change, along more mystical paths, and any broader effects in terms of society would not be politically driven, but through this change of heart that attracts others to the path. And so the peace you say "has not come to pass" wasn't the one Jesus was preaching. As such, Jesus was quite aware of human tendencies, so much so he wouldn't have been naive enough to believe that his kingdom could be established through human political designs.

As to what extent the wars perpetrated by the Church reflect Jesus' message, one only has to read the New Testament. Jesus was very clear that the road to peace comes via "taking up one's cross," which is to say dealing with one's own pain, and as far as possible not hurting others in the process. But he was quite aware that in the future his disciples would have to contend with "wars and rumors of wars," and that the world would never be an idyllic environment for a religious Utopia, such as proclaimed by the Prophet Mohammed.

George, you might consider reading "The Challenge of Jesus" by New Testament scholar N.T. Wright; it gives a clear sense of the Jewish backdrop of Jesus and the early church, and how this context helps us understand what the people of his day would have expected, and how they would have reacted to his teaching. Your posts suggest, at least, that you are not very familiar with the New Testament, and if that's the case you might want to read it through (at least one of the gospels, the book of Acts, and some of Pauls letters), since the questions you raise aren't reflective of its content.

However, how many wars, genocides, and other injustices are permissable before it reflects on Christianity?

I'm confused here. When was the last time a war was fought in the name of Christianity? Aside from the Crusades, which were about reclaiming the holy land and checking the spread of Islam, what other wars were perpetrated in the name of Christianity?

Genocides in the name of Christianity? Name one. I don't know of any.

However, Jesus was well aware of man's flaws. It seems unreasonable that Jesus would not have been more responsive to these faults and taken them into account when he made his proclaimations.

With all due respect, George, you don't seem to know much about Christianity. If you don't think the crucifixion, resurrection, and gift of the Spirit deal with human faults and the empowerment of the human spirit, then what can one say?

MM, I thought this article looked right up your alley. Gospel Heroics

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In 1988, on the eve of a revolution few believed would come in our lifetimes, 15 brave men and women came together in East Germany to sing American gospel music along with a few pop and jazz/Latin numbers. They christened themselves the Jena Jubilee Singers and approached the music with fervor despite the fact that associating oneself with anything related to America or organized religion could be and often was considered subversion by their communist rulers*

"I cannot tell you too much about this time because I am from the other part of Germany and would not have been allowed to visit them that easily," choir member Birgit Meyer said in a recent email interview from Germany. "I can imagine that a choir singing American songs had a very hard time. But they were fascinated by that music, especially because it was something new."

In many communist countries there was a strong underground market for Western music if for no other reason than the state's attempts at engineering catchy socialist ditties were such abysmal failures on an aesthetic level.

Nevertheless, the Jena Jubilee Singers made it through the tough times. Today the group boasts more than 50 members and is considered part of a wider gospel and spiritual music scene that has popped up throughout the reunited Germany.

And whereas the idea of coming to America was once strictly verboten, in an example of how far we've come these last 17 years, the group is now preparing for its first-ever tour of the United States. The singers are calling the tour "Project USA 2005: Back to the Roots" and dates are being announced as they are booked here.

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*This is still true on many college campuses in the West.

"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."
- C. S. Lewis

This excerpted letter written to the editor of the local newspaper in my area should be shared. It expresses Donna's love and beliefs for God. Blessings to Donna.

My God is love, not vengeful and oppressive.

Gladis B. raises some good questions in her letter to the editor.

Many people have wondered how can I love a God who burns people in Hell for eternity?. Would a truly loving father do that to his children? Why does Jesus say Lazarus and Jairus' daughter are sleeping, when they are dead?. It is because the dead are asleep, and not burning in Hell or watching us from Heaven.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing." If we are already in Heaven or Hell, why is there a resurrection of the dead? Yes, there is a Hell, but it is at the end of the world when all evil is burned up.

The death of Jesus on the cross was Heaven's greatest gift to save. When any law is broken, there is a consequence. When Adam and Eve sinned, the consequence was death. God required justice, justice required payment, and God became the payment.

Jesus said He and the Father are One. If Jesus was just another human, then God would be no better than a heathen, sacrificing a victim, to appease an angry god. But Christ's death is not the wrath of God, it is the penalty of sin, and Christ as God paid the price.

Satan's greatest deception is representing God as vengeful and oppressive, and unfortunately, religion has caused a lot of misery in this world. But that is not the religion of the God I serve, because my God is love.
Donna G.

I once met an atheist who told me he asked a Christian why he should believe in a dead Jew.

The Christian got up and danced and said, "Christ is not dead. Because he lives, he lives within my heart. That is why I believe". The atheist told me that was the best answer he had ever heard from a Christian.

I believe in Christ because I have experienced him. I have felt his love. Without Christ I have nothing and I am nothing. Who will love me when I am dead? Maybe my family. Who will love me after my family is dead? Only Christ.

Even for those who have not directly experienced him should cling to the hope. Hope is all we have short of love.

Religion is changing. I fear one day Christians may once again have to go secretive and draw a fish in the sand.

I find the whole story of Christ completely breath taking. One can get angry and resent God when reading the Old Testament. But what can one say of a God who took on human form and suffered all the pain that it is to be human? There are so many messages in there. One message could be interpreted that God has done it all. He knows what it is like to be human. That is a God I can love and respect.

Amen to your post above, Eric!

So good to have you back.

Faith and a Time of Agnosticism
by Ronald Rolheiser

quote:

The gods are receding, as any look around the Western world will tell you. But Heidegger has something else in mind too, namely, the reason the gods are receding is that we don't have the same fears our ancestors once had. Belief in God, he feels, is predicated on a certain fear and astonishment. Former generations, much more than we, felt their vulnerability, mortality, and helplessness in the face of energies and forces beyond them. Because of that, they looked for a power outside of themselves, God, to help them. Fear, among other things, made them believe in God.

�More positively, though, this vulnerability brought with it the capacity to be astonished. Before a universe that holds so many mysteries - thunder, lightning, the stars, the changing seasons, the process of conception, and the simple inexplicable fact that the sun rises and sets every day - there is cause for healthy astonishment, for holy fear, and there is the constant reminder of our littleness and the fact that life cannot be taken for granted.

Today, of course, we have few of these fears. We have faith in medicine, rationality, science, and in what we, humanity, can do for ourselves. As for astonishment before the power of nature? The weather channel has demythologized that.

Much of this, in fact, is good in terms of God and faith. Fear is not a good motive for religion, but rather the antithesis of true religion (whose task it is to cast out fear). Mature faith must take its roots in love and gratitude, not fear. Thus, freedom from false fear holds a rich potential for a maturer faith and religion.

Brad,
You might have to define fear for me here. If we had less fear, from my perspective, we wouldn't have so much poverty, addiction, greed, war, sefishness, crime,disease and criticism on the planet. Everyone would be totally acting as agents of God, totally enthused and acting out of their inner Love, Joy and Peace, if you go by the "Fear is the absence of Love" defintion and agree that God is Love. (In fact I think this is what dattaswammi is trying to say and knows within himself on some level) But our fears are still very much alive and well with us, they just keep changing form, and are getting more sophisticated, making them harder to identify, and much more lethal in the process.

Fear is something else I struggle with. I have never feared God - although I sense I should
My experience of God has been of a compassionate and loving Father.
This may be because of fear, illness and pain in my life and I think that the Holy Spirit gives me what I need.
Fear of God and His judgement has kept me on the 'right track' (as far as I can!!). For example depression has led me to think all sorts of terrible things - and fear of 'Hell' as taught by the RC church has kept me alive then!
The God of the OT appears a very scary being to me, and I can't tell anyone how glad I am he sent Jesus!

FrancesB

You might have to define fear for me here. If we had less fear, from my perspective, we wouldn't have so much poverty, addiction, greed, war, sefishness, crime,disease and criticism on the planet. Everyone would be totally acting as agents of God, totally enthused and acting out of their inner Love, Joy and Peace, if you go by the "Fear is the absence of Love" defintion and agree that God is Love.

Pauline, I've heard it said that the true opposite of love is indifference. I'd Google to find the exact quote, but I don't real care to do that. I guess I would define fear as that unpleasant emotion and body state that exists in the face of a perceived threat. That threat can be perceived as a threat to our mind, bodies, or souls, either directly or indirectly, in the present or in the perceived future. And it certainly seems to be an unassailable truth that the surer we are of Ultimates, the less fear we have. That's because we may no longer consider a threat to our life and limb to be a true threat. We may know somehow that this is not an ultimate threat. And so I agree. If we had less fear we would have less war, crime, disease, poverty, criticism, and addiction.

I have never feared God - although I sense I should

FrancesB: I told Phil one time, either online or off, I forget, that I got a big jolt of that "fear of god" stuff once. I never understood that concept before then, not even remotely. It seemed counterintuitive and at odds with any concept of a loving god. But it's not a bad fear. Just imagine what a baby or small child would feel it he could suddenly come to the realization of just how dependent he was on his parents. But kids usually don't. They just take that support system for granted as long as it's working well. But if given a quick glimpse "into the works" of creation, if given a backstage pass, so to speak, even if only in an impression that lasts an instant (which is what it was for me), you'll suddenly get a case of wobbly knees, for sure.

For example depression has led me to think all sorts of terrible things - and fear of 'Hell' as taught by the RC church has kept me alive then!

Well, I don't believe in hell. That is just logically way beyond any concept I can have of an all-loving god. I seriously doubt that an all-loving god is going to send anyone to an eternity of pain. That's not what love is or does. I couldn't do that so it seems rather impossible to imagine an all-loving god doing that. But there can be no doubt that we are children of sorts, and so a little fear of this type could be a good thing in certain circumstances I suppose. But I think it is inevitable that if we depend on fear for motivation that we are playing with fire. I think that fear can just so easily get unconsciously passed down the line. If we fear hell then we're going to probably pass on some negativity some way, some how, to others in our lives � or it will show up in other ways such as judgmentalism, intolerance and such, although such criticism may be unfounded given that YOU are such a sweet person, FrancesB.

quote:

given that YOU are such a sweet person, FrancesB

Thank you - I don't feel very sweet at times! Particularly when I'm trying to explain how to balance equations to 26 12 year olds! (Although its great when just one of them says, 'Oh, I get it!') I get a tiny glimpse of what Jesus meant when he talked about how the shepherd goes off looking for the one lost sheep, and how much rejoicing there is over one returning! It certainly helps me teaching that age group!! Teaching has been great for developing my patience and perseverence too. God knows what he's doing when he puts us places!
Frances

I get a tiny glimpse of what Jesus meant when he talked about how the shepherd goes off looking for the one lost sheep, and how much rejoicing there is over one returning!

Right now, FrancesB, I�m reading "Return of the Prodigal Son" by Henri Nouwen, so your remark strikes gold with me. I�m trying to figure out in my own life how to return to something that might not be a million miles from the type of amazing thing that you are doing in the teaching profession. But I think I understand the concept of patience. And I think I understand the concept of being lead to something. I hope.

Why Christianity?I'll answer with questions.Is the Bible apostolic resolution?Is the proof of its witnessing that without doubt there are anti forces witnessed who purposefully withhold crucial information once it's known a source is close to an important revelation?Why do people speculate the book of John that says itself is written from the hand of his aquaintances after he rendered stories?Why did it take nearly 2000 years before Christ was spoken of as an actual historical figure?To sell mega amounts of internationally connected internet computer users technology that supplemented their belief and the access to that information?If you think it misrepresenting saying Christ not considered a historical figure until near 2000 my thesis being that scientists and historians could no longer camoflauge the assimilation of reported witness text and various artifact finds immediately before and after and during his life.Dag Hammadi- Qumrun and Wadi Murabbacat helped solidify that..Modern culture was finally forced to bear witness.How many people can get away with the expressed manifestations of the deepest human truths and its various inspired compulsions without drawing control forces?Those forces because of humanity's purging spirituality with ego and the ultimite preposterous preoccupation with petulence that if not truly existent would not cause theological pundits to use the expression "Spiritual soil".I think the deepest and at least intentionally sincere answer to "Why Christianity"- is the honest exploration of the"Eloi Eloi eli sabacchtani"that Matthew and Mark quote.Additionally identifying current human constituency who seem believing Mary's womb was as said a divine blessing not involved with human activity yet laboring over word semantics that do or do not consider Christ "God's son".The Muslims respect and adhered witness of her womb seems a growing transcendent cause of belief of divine providence.My question is a direct one.Was telepathy during Christ's life any thing resembling the real effective human tool it is today?If so then after you retrospectively and currently sift through the laments of those allowed and suggestively not allowed selective telepathic witness you can begin an understanding of God's seeming true intent of the Jerusalem area being the earth's original spiritual base and its only choice. Human aided dissemination that covered the entire globe.Additionally the seeming obvious priority of Christ's life and its witness and if one believes the story of the earth and our destinies that God chose at least during Christ's life the absolute that it would or could not cause any obvious wars. Thus the frustration of the crowd that God and Son didn't attempt wholesale winning of via intervening combative domination and the vaunted desired leap off the cross that Golgotha wanted and caused the apostles' temporary fear.Human response called "choice" seeming the deepest definition of love and our ultimite reckoning with the earth's self respect or whatever vestiges of it remain before John's spoken of "Apocalypse".What I suggest is the responsible opinion of the Bible's true resolve.That perspective either validates or dismisses any intention of its connection with what is called "Christianity".Take care and God bless. Absolutely no twisted parallels.Absolutely straight forword.Gary V. Giardina.

Wow, Gary. That was truly very deep.

You said I lot of wonderful things there. Some things that I would never have pondered on.

Thank you.

Take care.

Gary, you have the gift, Phil has the pulpit. Can you make it next Sunday?

Most of the misery and unhappiness in the world is due to the undeniable fact that many do not realize that only by loving, knowing and serving God can man be happy. We are made for God's joy and pleasure. It is knowing that only in Jesus Christ, true God, and true man, can a man and woman find their true identity and purpose in life. The true Christian lives by faith, love, and hope in our Beloved Savior knowing we have eternal life in and through Him. We accept the gift of God, His Beloved son Jesus Christ, who by His death and resurrection now sits in a Living Body on the right hand of Father God.

The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God. "Our hearts are restless, O Lord, until they rest in You." (Saint Augustine).

Only in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can we find such true happiness, as a Christian.

Freebird

here's someone who was haunted by his faith...sorry, I'm in a weird mood. Changed my mind. Baudelaire. if you ever want to read him. is a great poet.

Asher:

Commenting on a poem like that from a Christian perspective, or any, does it some injustice; it captures a darkness we all know to some extent. But for your "weird mood," let me offer, if it appeals, the long tradition of Catholic spiritual direction, particularly that of St. John of the Cross, who, among other saints, describes the most painful passage of human transformation as the Dark Night of the Spirit. In this Night, as I understand it from those who've passed through it (beyond the Dark Night of the Senses), there is a deep sense of having no self-competent moral agency at all, with utter dependence upon a God who only gives a completely dry faith as an equally dark bearing. There are no consolations in this wasteland - no sense of union or bliss, or rapturous betrothals. And that dark, dry faith only sustains one past, or through, utter despair, which is the psychological risk your poet seems to be describing, or perhaps falling into without guidance.

So there is a wisdom tradition to appeal to, but it doesn't come in the form of ecstatic experience or philosophical vindication, or poems written about the despair of hope, but through spiritual direction with one who has lived through the laments with the gifts of dark faith, dark hope, and dark love. John of the Cross wrote his poems in a tiny, dank, maggot-infested prison cell over a long period of time, a confinement that gave him the disease he died from, and the opportunity for utter surrender beyond human competencies.


Consider: "The Impact of God: Soundings From St. John of the Cross," by Iain Matthew

I pray that more of humanity will some day soon come to the truth, recognition and realization that we are all Christians. The true Christian knows this and non-Christians hopefully will be enlightened to this truth and join our Christian family as followers of Christ.

Apostle Paul said: "Neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Jesus Christ". All are worthy, equal, and special. God is not a respecter of people. We are all created by God and for God.

Recently at the lab I asked the technician if she saw a difference in the blood drawn of Christians, Buddhists, Hindu's, etc. We know the answer: God's Beloved Son Jesus Christ is in all of God's creations. All things were created in and through "The Word" Jesus Christ. The first born of all creation. The Lord and Giver of Life.

I ask non-Christians aren't you my brother?. Oh no, they say, we come from congealed stardust, we are an accidental by-product of cosmic chemistry, we come from a big bang, an explosion which scattered us into millions of atoms, etc. I tell them we are not something, but someone, beloved children of God.

I earnestly pray that they may seek the Lord with all their hearts.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and no one cometh to the Father except through The Son. Amen
Psalm 105
"Seek the Lord and His Strength,
Seek His face evermore.

Christians be at peace among yourselves and let us pray that non-Christians may be one with us as we are all one in and through Christ. Amen