Wondering what you think of this kind of thing... I come across it so often. Don't know if I "should" take it into consideration or not... being highly sensitive.

Generally, I don't believe much in astrology, but sometimes just wonder....

http://www.highlysensitivesouls.com/blog/?p=327

I've never gotten much into astrology, Katy. I think w.c. has some good ideas on how it might be a kind of metaphysical template, so maybe he'll read this and comment.

Have you (or anyone else) experienced anything going on in your life that you can attribute to this astrological phenomenon?

Katy:

I've been utilizing Vedic astrology for about 10 years now, aware that the Catholic church officially frowns upon it, even viewing it as heresy. The Catechism treats it rather harshly, lumping it into forms of divination that seek to know the future and control other people. Such a description sounds like JPII's regretable remarks regarding Buddhism, which he eventually apologized for.

Various Popes were known to consult astrologists, but the early church, in its attempts to separate from pagan influences, was understandably going to treat astrology as part of the problem, even though our Savior's birth was enshrined with respect for the magi's astrological knowledge.

When viewed as a metaphysical template, or a formative influence at our births, then one is only compeled to treat it as a matter of environment shaping the organism. We know, for instance, that the moon impacts biological cycles, including a woman's monthly cycle. The planets all exert their magnetic forces upon earth, or our planet wouldn't have its particular orbit and life as we know it wouldn't be possible; this is no more divination than considering other aspects of environmental influence.

How and when we come into the world seems to leave a powerful imprint, and may even form individual patterns that interact with how each of us develop psycho-spiritually via transcendental grace which Itself isn't bound by such forces. IOW, how we respond to grace may be subject to these cosmic influences, not grace Himself and His ultimate transformation of us.

As for Mercury going retrograde, it is, according to astrology, different for each person, depending upon all other astrological influences as a complex pattern. But if you were to ever consult an astrologer, I'd recommend one from the Vedic tradition, which seems to have a more adroit sense of how these forces interact with a person's psychological development. Others here may warn of occult influences, and I appreciate this myself, although astrology, at least among the one or two people I've consulted, has never seemed to bring harm, or confuse itself with the Divine.

Phil, yes, the people at the HSP forums claim they are affected, actually every time there is a full moon. :-) I have never noticd any particular affect on me that I attribute to astrological influence ... so many other influences in life, that I think are more powerful.

w.c. I never thought of it as an environmental influence.. that makes sense. But like I said above I think there are many other things that influence us.

You say, "our Savior's birth was enshrined with respect for the magi's astrological knowledge." Some say they were astronomers.

Your comments are interesting.. Thank you!

Katy

Katy:

I'm not sure either, but the magi are said to have seen not only a major solar event, but to have ascribed spiritual significance to it, which sounds more astrological than what we'd currently consider pure astronomy. And the ancients really didn't separate the two sciences, at least as far as I can tell in my reading.

In Vedic astrology, each chakra is partially governed by the sun, moon and primary planets, each in a way unique to how those planets interact with the houses and other stellar aspects of one's birth chart. It is quite complex, and I've only read through one book on the subject. But the chakra/planetary connections, descending from the 6th down are: sun/moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, and saturn.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
...And just to anticipate your concern re: astrology. Shasha, you may actually attribute more of the supernatural, or spiritual, to this than I do. It wouldn't surprise me, since many Christians leery of astrology view it as a religious system. Now, it is certainly a core element of the Vedas, but what is clear to me, given that consciousness and the Divine are completely different, is that astrology simply mirrors our subconscious interactions with ubiquitous cosmic forces. \

Yes, that is one of my problems with astrology. It is rooted in an ancient, pagan spirituality. Some astrologers will call on spirits or their gods to assist in the readings they perform. Where do natural "ubiquitious cosmic forces" merge with the magic-making energy of the astrologer?

This is why the need to pray against any connections one has made in the supernatural through contact with astrologers, imo. If I hear this in somebody's history, and they want to be set free, I will ask them to pray:

"In the Name of Jesus, I break off all connections I made with X astrologer. I take back the power I gave to him and any power he took over me life during my interaction with him."

Astrology is a form of divination and forbidden in the OT. Furthermore, in St. Paul's day, he addresses the need for those Baptized in Christ's life to turn away from old practices related to the "new moon." (Where is that scripture?) I think it's pretty clear that Paul was referring some kind of astrology. Why would Paul say this? Was he merely ignorant of the reality of cosmic forces and underestimated their power or was he aware of them and declared that for those who have received Baptism, we are no longer susceptible to them?

In addition, I don't see that astrology meets criteria as a science.
From Wikipedida:
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") refers to any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science may refer to a highly skilled practice.[1]
Science specifically refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on scientific method, and to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.[2][3] This article focuses on the more restricted use of the word. Science as discussed in this article is sometimes called experimental science to differentiate it from applied science - the application of scientific research to specific human needs - although the two are often interconnected.
Science is a continuing effort to discover and increase human knowledge and understanding through disciplined research. Using controlled methods, scientists collect observable evidence of natural or social phenomena, record measurable data relating to the observations, and analyze this information to construct theoretical explanations of how things work. The methods of scientific research include the generation of hypotheses about how phenomena work, and experimentation that tests these hypotheses under controlled conditions. Scientists are also expected to publish their information so other scientists can do similar experiments to double-check their conclusions. The results of this process enable better understanding of past events, and better ability to predict future events of the same kind as those that have been tested.


Calling astrology valid from the point of view that it is like other more immediate environmental influences like childhood experiences is a long stretch. It's not the same as the soft science of developmental psychology, for instance, which can reliably predict certain problems in adulthood given certain measurable factors in childhood.

The theory of the meaning of one's natal chart, for instance, just doesn’t pass the most basic hypothesis testing. Two people born at the same location and within several minutes do not end up having the same basic personality tendencies or life experiences. This isn’t true of twins usually, and if you consider the thousands and thousands of other accounts of people born in the same hospital at roughly the same time, you’d get multiple failures to support this simple, yet essential prediction of natal chart astrology. Right?

I took a quick look at some sites that claim scientific support of natal chart predictions, but haven't gotton through them yet. If there's support for any one of the predictions made by astrology, I'd love to see it. Of course, it would have to be replicable and result from tight methodology. Do you know if any, w.c.?

Shasha:

Here is the link for the scientific data I was referring to. There isn't a direct support for astrological claims made here, but the inference to those planetary influences, from lunar ones, is strong:

www.biology-online.org/article...ar_cycle_humans.html


The actual testing of astrology by modern science has undermined much of its claims, as far as I can see from doing a literature review. But what I've noticed is two things predominate in the studies:

1) the use of mostly Western astrology, rather than Vedic;
2) a very simplistic use of astrological interpretation, such as looking for patterns of behavior based simply on the house location of one's moon or what the ascendant is.


I had two western readings before being referred to a Vedic astrologer, and could hardly recognize myself in the western charts. When I had a Vedic reading, and without telling the astrologer a thing about myself, the information matched my life in an astonishing way. Of course, this is nothing but anecdotal testimony; however, I'd have to see some of the better Vedic astrologers tested and found deficient before I seriously doubted what I saw in my own case.

As for astrologers calling upon deities to help them, yes, that could be deeply problematic for most Christians. But again, I'd profer the notion of helpers versus God. Helpers may have certain tasks that suit their design and purpose. As for Paul's calling those baptised to leave their pagan traditions, I'd guess that this was much more than astrology itself (not that Paul would accept astrology), and probably involved full blow pagan rituals.

Again, my view of this is free of most concern about confusing cosmic powers with their Source, at least for myself. I think each person must discern where they may be losing some focus in their faith walk re: these matters. But I find it not the least surprising that planetary gravitational forces would interact with our psychophysiology, just as the lunar ones do.

And so just to summarize my own distinctions, for clarity's sake:

There's a difference between whether or not astrology can predict solar, lunar, geo, planetary and stellar electromagnetic field interactions with living organisms, and whether or not those interactions occur. The latter seems modestly substantiated, which suggests we should wait upon the development of an accurate means of measurement for those effects, if they are in reach of human intelligence, and if in fact something like Vedic astrology fails to capture them.

w.c., the way you understand this makes sense and I can see where one could use it as just another resource for self-understanding. It does seem complicated, however, and I can see where one could get over-involved with it -- same as for other self-knowledge resources, I'd guess.

Phil:

Very much agreed. Us city dwellers lose our sense of environmental intimacy so easily, and without knowing it, and this is just one way of appreciating its larger expanse. The stars, planets, galaxies, were all His handiwork, with his most precious creature being us humans, and so little wonder those celestial bodies testify to our place in the larger scheme of things. And as you allude, any exclusive focus on the creaturely to resolve our fallenness will show itself to be what it is, and isn't, however painfully.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
And so just to summarize my own distinctions, for clarity's sake:

There's a difference between whether or not astrology can predict solar, lunar, geo, planetary and stellar electromagnetic field interactions with living organisms, and whether or not those interactions occur. The latter seems modestly substantiated, which suggests we should wait upon the development of an accurate means of measurement for those effects, if they are in reach of human intelligence, and if in fact something like Vedic astrology fails to capture them.

Yes, and until such a thing develops, we ought not to call astrology a science.

(The beauty of science is that it is humble; it knows it limitations and boundaries, that it is but one means of assessing truth.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w.c.:
Shasha:
...As for astrologers calling upon deities to help them, yes, that could be deeply problematic for most Christians. But again, I'd profer the notion of helpers versus God. Helpers may have certain tasks that suit their design and purpose. As for Paul's calling those baptised to leave their pagan traditions, I'd guess that this was much more than astrology itself (not that Paul would accept astrology), and probably involved full blow pagan rituals.

Again, my view of this is free of most concern about confusing cosmic powers with their Source, at least for myself. I think each person must discern where they may be losing some focus in their faith walk re: these matters. ...QUOTE]

I dunno about these astrology "helpers," w.c. I don't see it as an issue of helpers vs. God.

"Cosmic powers" that an astrologer might call upon may be derived from the "powers and principalities" against which Christian are called to fight, protect oneself (Ephesians 6).

The autobiographical accounts of those folks listed in my From False Gods to Christ thread report that the array of friendly-seeming, guiding spirits with whom they interacted proved to be deceptive. These folks report the need to go through a period of repentance and purification once they "see the light" of Christ. This is not something you'd hear if the spirits were beings whom God has provided with a helpful "design and purpose."

Shasha:

You and I will probably continue seeing these things differently. You have your own background, and I have mine. Your's was unfriendly regarding Hinduism, or its New Age derivation, and mine was friendly. By friendliness I mean no signs of evil, as would be demonstrated by lack of humility or outright manipulation among these particular Hindu teachers where astrology was simply one aspect of the Vedic sciences, i.e, herbal medicine, yoga, and astrology. It would probably be best to consider these together, as they are all part of the same tradition. As such, many would do well to consider something like Ayurvedic Medicine, since many diseases unresponsive to western medicine respond positively to this older medical tradition which holds a non-reductionistic view of the body. One could just as easily say that western medicine is prone to evil because it is fundamentally nihilistic or materialistic, yet good comes from it. Ayurvedic medicine, under a qualified physician, has an outstanding track record, and is receiving attention from the National Institutes of Health, and so there's more here to consider than simply those who've been disillusioned with certain practitioners.

So I think you oversimply here, and lack information beyond your own negative experience, or the small sampling of people you are referring to from a few books by authors who sound like they've gone from some New Age affiliation to a fundamentalist, Christian extreme. And, your own leanings seem increasingly fundamentalist to me, and this makes me wonder, since on the other, related thread which you started re: false gods, you spend such little time addressing exiled parts of the psyche (a surprise, since you are a psychotherapist) as a common confusion among fundamentalist groups where awareness of psychic turmoil arising from histories of abuse is seldom if ever treated by pastors beyond asking God to heal the pain (which is often asking for further exiling of the parts, which become darker and more suspect as evil). You seem to be painting a black and white picture, focusing more on safety than openness. Openness isn't a risk if we use our reason, conscience, intuition, and consult others beyond our fields of knowledge, but if fear is the primary motivator, then the dye, or bias, is already cast.

Why wouldn't much of the heavenly realm respond positively to Christ's supremacy? Seeing one more loving than oneself, more pure, God Himself, only provoked a small number of angels to rebel. You often make hell sound like it is populated equally to heaven.

w.c,

I respond to some of your points on the other thread. Seems to be a lot of cross-over going on.

About "focusing more on safety than openness," yes indeed. The openness that I (and the folks listed on page 1) experienced made me vulnerable to danger. My experience with the eastern path, Siddha Yoga, Kundalini Yoga,Isha Yoga and Kali worship was not "unfriendly." Nobody hurt me. Nearly everybody on those paths was warm and well-meaning (except the Siddha Yoga leader in Ann Arbor who rounded up us young ones and interrogated us about our loyalty under threat of exile).

It was all about the energy and the teachings about the deities which encouraged a pulling away from Christ.

My impression is that you are suggesting that danger is not quite real, a projection of our inner worlds, or that it is reactionary. We are saying the danger is so real that we never want to approach that kind of openness again. I'm open to you're being right, to some extent, theoretically. But I have to trust my gut on this one.

In terms of addressing exiled parts of the psyche, child abuse, fundamentalism...that topic is highly relevant to my work as a therapist and prayer minister of so many hurting, tormented souls. I'm happy to engage with you about this issue on that thread where you think it would intersect with the ideas presented there...go for it.

peace, Shasha

Shasha:

I would never encourage a person to lose Jesus as their primary, or even sole, focus, or to open where they feel unsafe. But it isn't uncommon to find folks in Christian circles unaware of the archetypal eneriges being stirred up via an active prayer life, which are then labelled as evil because they don't embody Christian imagery, and may even appear as threatening in the beginning. We see those folks coming to SP with similar concerns now and then. And so I think it is important to encourage openness regarding cultivation of the inner felt sense, yet this cannot occur unless the person is feeling safe. A Christian who encounters something outside the realm of his belief system, even if it is merely an asepect of the subconscious, could lose that sense of safety simply because the form of the energy is unfamiliar (perhaps an expression of the collective unconscious, in the Jungian sense, and even arising from a pool of imagery that seems quite foreign, like cobras, etc) and treated as suspect by pastors and peers. I'm just concerned that so many Christians, relatively speaking, seem to know so little about this hidden energetic aspect of their lives, which is psychospiritual, rather than transcendental, and when it does make itself known are thrown into a crisis that can only be referenced in terms of evil.

The Hindu teachers I had never encouraged me to leave the church. In fact, they encouraged me to stay put within my own tradition, and to worship Christ. Of course, their view was rather pluralistic to start with, but this seems quite different from the malicious intent of your siddhi yoga teacher. I've heard of such things, and especially related to Muktananda's following.


And so as I see it, there is a susceptibility in the Christian community to a polarization of psychic material in the name of good and evil, especially where subconscious material isn't first dealt with before devotion to an intense prayer life, or active involvement in prayer groups where kundalini is so easily activated, either through the mixing of energy fields and/or as sequelae to the Holy Spirit's annointing.

To have cultivated a good deal of inner sensing should make one's gut instinct even clearer, and with it, a further dileneation re: inner denizens of the psyche and true evil. It's just my experience, in having done the inner sensing process for a long time, that evil is certainly real, but seldom able to take up residence in the soul because of the unfoldings of this subconscious material into awareness. IOW, in most cases where this awareness is in place, the danger isn't equal to the fact of evil's existence. In fact, even the fear of the vulnerability needed to give and receive love, as in the pain of a narcissistic wound, is different than evil's actual loathing toward love.

Peace to you too.

And yes, I'm repeating myself, for the most part.

WC
Thank you so much for sharing this information.
Finally there is an understanding of how to assist
one, like myself, who experienced what you are
addressing.

Experiencing things outside "acceptable" Christian
images did throw me into a crises. I left Christian
mentoring at that point as I was told I could not
discuss these things.


Saying that these experiences were the devil & evil would
not have been beneficial for me personally. I
imagine people are different in what they need.

Would you happen to know where else in these
forums where you have addressed this issue.
Thanks so much

Sue:

This is the first time the subject has been discussed at length, at least since I've been a forum member. Not sure what to suggest otherwise.

There are, for me, some cautions about astrology, but mainly around what the person doing the reading thinks of him/herself, and whether or not something of the cosmic order of things is being confused for the Divine. For instance, it isn't uncommon for those in New Age Circles, and among Buddhists and Hindus, to think kundalini is the same thing Christians refer to as the Holy Spirit. And you will find some folks who do readings to assume understanding of various matters simply because they feel competent in the area of astrology. With Vedic astrology, you may also encounter some unwelcome cultural influences as well, as first generation Indians may be quite chauvinistic, or have an almost caste-system-like attitude toward the "student." But not all good Vedic astrologers are Indian, and not all Indians are chauvinistic. And like anything else, you'd want to know the credentials of the person doing the reading. There are several associations considered the orthodox way to gain credentialing within the Vedic system, for instance.

Hi WC:
Sorry I was not very clear in my post. I was
never involved in astrology. I was doing
Centering Prayer and then a prayer
very similar. I must have opened up to
archetypal experiences as well as collective,
perhaps even genetic memories.

I did not understand what was occurring or
why it was occurring. If memory serves me
correctly, i believe you mentioned how
something like this could occur if the lower
work (don't remember the exact term) had not
been addressed thoroughly enough.

This would be my case. I'm just deeply
grateful to finally have a beginning
understanding of what occurred.

wc
"But it isn't uncommon to find folks in Christian circles unaware of the archetypal eneriges being stirred up via an active prayer life, which are then labelled as evil because they don't embody Christian imagery, and may even appear as threatening in the beginning. We see those folks coming to SP with similar concerns now and then. And so I think it is important to encourage openness regarding cultivation of the inner felt sense, yet this cannot occur unless the person is feeling safe. A Christian who encounters something outside the realm of his belief system, even if it is merely an asepect of the subconscious, could lose that sense of safety simply because the form of the energy is unfamiliar (perhaps an expression of the collective unconscious, in the Jungian sense, and even arising from a pool of imagery that seems quite foreign, like cobras, etc) and treated as suspect by pastors and peers. I'm just concerned that so many Christians, relatively speaking, seem to know so little about this hidden energetic aspect of their lives, which is psychospiritual, rather than transcendental, and when it does make itself known are thrown into a crisis that can only be referenced in terms of evil. "

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mary Sue,

Sue:

Yes, CP can be very powerful in awakening these psychic energies, and as far as I know, perhaps less clear in how to deal with them. I have recommended Ann Weiser Cornell's Inner Relationship Focusing over the years as one of the easiest ways to learn to befriend these forces without getting overwhelmed. She has two books out, but it is unlikely the books will shed a deep light on the process she's developed unless you've had a session or two with her, or one of her students, first. You can find contact information for Ann Cornell and her students on her website; these sessions can be done by phone, and you might find one of those trained Focusing teachers in your community. There are several styles of Focusing, but Cornell's seems the most effective for dealing with exiled parts of the soul coming into awareness.


www.focusingresources.com

Thanks very much WC
Will do some looking into this.