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Someone named artlover posted this on the Lounge forum at macfixit.com (as she's the author; just giving credit). If it wasn't so true, it might be funnier.
Notice how PC agenda have usurped so many traditional liberal values like justice and equal rights. If anyone has a counterpart about conservatives, feel free to post it. Comments on all this welcomed. --------------- You know you're a liberal if . . . 1. You think sexual harassment is rampant, date rape pervasive, domestic violence common, and Paula Jones was lying. 2. You hate Hillary jokes. 3. You pale at the execution of child killers, but defend the killing of unborn children as an expression of choice. 4. You think trees have feelings, animals can conceptualize, and the fetus is a blob of protoplasm. 5. You are convinced that Frank Capra films and Norman Rockwell paintings are lies and distortions, but "Platoon," "Dances with Wolves," and "Thelma and Louise" are realistic. 6. You thought Walt Disney was saccharine sweet and terminally cutesy pie until it made "Pocahontas." 7. You think a moment of silent prayer at the beginning of the school day constitutes government indoctrination and an intrusion on parental authority, while sex education, condom distribution, and multi-culturalism are values-neutral. 8. You agonize over threats to the natural environment (acid rain, toxic waste) but are oblivious to threats to the social environment (pornography, promiscuity, and family dissolution). 9. You want to legalize cocaine and outlaw handguns. 10. You think cops are pigs and criminals are products of their environment. 11. You believe the National Rifle Association helps criminals, while the American Civil Liberties Union protests the innocent. 12. Jesse Jackson makes sense to you. 13. Barbra Streisand makes even more sense. 14. You think Herblock cartoons are funny and Janet Reno is totally hot. 15. You believe corporate profits are obscene but government spending is too low and the American people are under taxed. 16. You think deficits are caused by tax loopholes. 17. You think AIDS is spread by insufficient funding. 18. You consider the Catholic bishops noble and idealistic when they oppose capital punishment and welfare cuts, but dangerous fanatics trying to legislate their theology when they defend the right to life. 19. You are convinced that proponents of welfare reform hate the poor and opponents of Affirmative Action hate minorities, but AIDS activists who bash the Pope and People for the American Way types who go psycho over Protestant `fundamentalism' are guardians of democracy. 20. You attribute every minority problem to entrenched, institutional racism and the legacies of slavery and segregation. 21. You think the black middle class is a myth created by Newt Gingrich. 22. You don't understand all the whining about Affirmative Action and are more than willing to sacrifice someone else's employment or education opportunity to assuage your guilt. 23. You marched against American involvement in Vietnam, thought the Gulf War was unnecessary, but believed 25,000 U.S. troops in Bosnia was vital to our national interests. 24. You see no correlation between welfare and the rise of illegitimacy, judicial leniency and surging crime rates, or addiction and an entertainment industry that glorifies drug abuse, but you believe Richard Nixon is responsible for everything horrible that's happened in the past quarter century. Lastly, you're a liberal if you don't get the point of any of this. |
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A-men, Phil. Exactly what I thought. Once upon a time, the expression "for the working man" did apply to democrats; now however, the only "working" man they are for is themselves, along with socialism... I got this absurd mailing the other day asking me to fill out a survey about population control. In short, there is a group now trying to set limits one how many children Americans can have. This is so bad - that is what Communist China does for pity's sakes! They murder innocent babies in front of parent's who "exceed the 1 child per family" quota - that is so sick and perverse and now this stinking group wants to bring similar laws here! I filled out the survey all right, and gave them my 2, 4, and even 6 cents worth on the infringement of freedom and rights this country is supposed to hold dear. The group is called, "Negative Population Growth". President is Donald Mann and of course, they're based in Washington, DC. Sick is what it is. I hope they don't get away with this one. |
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Ahh starlite, we do think alike on this matter.
Here's another good one! A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged! |
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On the Macfixit forums, a member named Mark Mc posted the following response to the liberal post. A rather humorless chap, I think.
1. You think sexual harassment is non-existent, date rape is ok unless it�s your daughter, domestic violence should be left in the home, and Paula Jones� legal staff were only looking out for her interests. 2. You hate Dubya jokes. 3. You scream for the execution of drug dealers, but defend the trading of drugs for weapons by past administrations as economic stimulus. 4. You think trees grow on trees, animals can are here to serve our every whim like a wife, and it�s ok to kill doctors to advance your ideology. 5. You are convinced that Charlton Heston is still Moses, but should be promoted and are ok with him having a concealed weapon, and Norman Rockwell paintings are the way it was and forever should be, but makers of "Platoon," "Dances with Wolves," and "Thelma and Louise" should be tarred and feathered for challenging your perceptions and causing you a moment of thought. 6. You thought Walt Disney�s use of cocaine was acceptable because of the economic stimulus he provided and that there are no �undertones� to �Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs�, but the ones that are there are ok . 7. You think a moment of silent prayer at the beginning of the school day constitutes good government and should be extended to 3 hours, an intrusion of whimsical theological authority should be mandatory, while anyone who speaks of sex education, condom distribution, and multi-culturalism should be lynched. 8. You agonize over threats to your way of life, but are oblivious to threats to the environment that will harm us all including your children and their children. 9. You want to legalize handguns and outlaw cocaine, except when you can use it to trade-up for a new puppet dictator who will buy our weapons before shooting at us. 10. You think pigs and criminals are products of their environment and that confining them all in a few mega-facilities solves all our problems does not create new ones. 11. You believe the American Civil Liberties Union helps criminals, while the National Rifle Association protects the innocent. 12. Rush Limbaugh makes sense to you, even when he speaks in half truths. 13.Jerry Falwell, G. Gordon Liddy and Pat Robertson all make even more sense. 14. You think Gary Trudeau should be exiled, and Carl Rove is totally hot. 15. You believe paying taxes is obscene but government spending is too low to properly support corporate profits and executive compensation plans. 16. You think deficits are not caused by �soft money" contributions and politically motivated corporate tax loopholes. 17. You think AIDS is cured by insufficient funding. 18. You consider the Fundamentalist Preachers noble and altruistic when they oppose free thought and defence spending cuts, but are never dangerous fanatics trying to legislate their theology. 19. You are convinced that proponents of military budget reform hate this country and are not real Americans, and proponents of Affirmative Action hate whitey, but abortion activists who kill the doctors and harass and abuse the civil liberties of others are heros, and The American Spectator and the 700 Club are the sole guardians of democracy and Truth. 20. You attribute every minority problem to entrenched and institutional lazy people, and the legacies of slavery and segregation are just myths. 21. You think the white middle class deserves more, and Newt Gingrich is without flaw and completely altruistic. 22. You don't understand all the whining about Affirmative Action and are more than willing to sacrifice someone else's employment or education opportunity for your own personal gain. 23. You marched against nothing, thought the Gulf War was entirely about protecting democracy, still believe that the patriot missiles had a �very high� effectiveness rate and that 50 + billion dollars on a very likely ineffective missile defence is a sound and wise solution to all our problems. 24. You see no correlation between warfare, the rise of defence spending, and the tax increases that we will have to pay; nor do you have a problem spending 30+ thousand dollars a year to incarcerate someone when 1/2 as much would have likely prevented the problem in the first place; you still believe Richard Nixon is innocent, and Reagan knew nothing of what his appointees were doing. 25. You think we should spend another 75+ million dollars investigating the Clintons; if for no other reason: to diffuse any attention to members of the current administrations connections to Enron; to save us tax dollars - knowing that it will cost more to investigate all the folks appointed by Bush <thanks!>; it would be unpatriotic at this time as we are fighting a <long - till next election anyway> war against terrorism; besides all the good stuff from the Governers office has already been locked away in daddy�s Presidential library - and since I <GW> changed the laws you can�t see them, haha. Lastly, you're a conservative if you take this as a personal attack, an assault on the American way of life, and have the urge to use your 9mm Glock to put an end to this kind of talk. |
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Ultraliberals are too quick to want to toss out essentials and ultraconservatives are too reluctant to let go of accidentals.
jb |
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Seriously now . . .
------ What do we really mean by liberal and conservative? This won't be as easy as the parodies above suggest, especially since the term liberal comes from liberalism, which most people who consider themselves conservatives regard fondly. We hear it said that the Democratic Party is more liberal than the Republican Party . . . that Kerry is Liberal, Bush conservative, etc. We all kind of sort of know what we're talking about, but how would you really describe the differences? Also, is it really helpful to speak of liberals and conservatives? Are there any politicians who are purely one or the other? Might it not be more helpful to speak of specific issues, and the pros and cons of those? ------- Here is a good article on this topic. To really get the straight scoop, click here |
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I scored 66 --- nothing to do with the antichrist.
Seriously, Ultraliberals are too quick to want to toss out essentials and ultraconservatives are too reluctant to let go of accidentals, is no parody but has more to do with religious progressivism and conservatism, each which I view, btw, as a charism. I would think many Catholics would defy the liberal/conservative divide as described in those articles cited by Phil, especially if following an orthodox line on life issues, social justice issues, just war matters, etc The Catholic rule of thumb is not to juxtapose liberal vs conservative positions but is guided by the creative tension that exists between the subsidiarity principle and the establishment and maintenance of the common good . Couple these two dynamisms with the seamless garment of life , which includes abortion, euthanasia, cloning, just war theory, the death penalty and such and the orthodox Catholic will defy classical liberal/conservative descriptions, except to note that the principle of subsidiarity has a built-in bias toward what we are nowadays calling conservatism. However, the Just War doctrine is increasingly moving toward a presumption against force, which many neocons rightly object to, stating that it should be cast as a presumption for peace, however that peace might best be established and maintained. For further info: type in "subsidiarity" here . pax, jb |
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I scored 108. I think that qualifies me to talk about the conservative definition - which I shall do shortly.
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. . . the orthodox Catholic will defy classical liberal/conservative descriptions, except to note that the principle of subsidiarity has a built-in bias toward what we are nowadays calling conservatism. . .
Well-put! Add to this the staunch anti-communism of the Church through the ages and I think it can be said that Catholicism is more at home with conservative principles than with liberal ones (liberation theology notwithstanding). The Church is very much pro-safety net, however, as indeed most conservatives are as well. Where Catholicism parts ways with many neocons is in its opposition to capital punishment, laissez-faire capitalism, and the use of just-war principles to justify nationalistic endeavors. Church teaching is also sympathetic with loosening punishments against illegal immigrants while being more or less pro-union and pro-labor in disputes with business. Those are just generalities, however. |
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The Church is very much pro-safety net, however, as indeed most conservatives are as well.
I believe it was George Will who was recently talking about this. It might have been somebody else (Novak?). Anyway, the point was that capitalism is what works best but part of the way it works is that jobs are produced and jobs are lost, and workers are not always at fault when jobs are lost. A certain amount of "safety net" is needed to go along with the natural give-and-take of capitalism � if only as a moral safety net, but it's also a quite pragmatic safety net. But I disgress�. JB's "Ultraliberals are too quick to want to toss out essentials and ultraconservatives are too reluctant to let go of accidentals" has always stuck in my mind somewhat. I can think of a hundred definitions for liberal or conservative but the only one that seems foundational is something like this: Liberals view the individual as inherently vulnerable and so the state is needed as protector � primarily from other individuals. It is a moral virtue for the state to try and diminish harm. Individual rights are thus subservient to group needs. Conservatives view the individual as dynamic and powerful and the state exists only to secure the framework for individual achievement (including those necessary parts of the state involved with its actual survival such as national defense). Too much state, by definition, is harmful to the individual, no matter the intent of the state. It's easy to see how one group would align with unions; the other with business; or how one would be for with gun control, the other against. I tend to disagree with the only true neo-conservative, George Will, who seems to think it's a bad idea for conservatives to harp on "government as evil". If someone isn't pulling back, George, just who will? But he's probably correct when he says that conservatism is no longer about small government. It's about how and where big government will spend its money. |
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Liberals and Conservatives Defined Today
by Hal Lindsey
One can easily see the outlines of the Red/Blue divide. Both sides claim the moral high ground. As proof, liberals will point to how they've advanced civil rights and tolerance to groups such as gays and other minorities, which is worthy of noting. Conservatives will note how the liberal's notion of "tolerance" means, in practice, "never having to say no to anything." This philosophy can and does lead to the degradation of values. Although some issues, such as equality, are advanced, it's always a trade-off as a broad swath of crudeness, coarseness and other cultural carnage is left in the wake of supposed improvements; such is the oft misguided nature of liberal morality. It needs the grounding that conservative and religious values provide. Without them liberalism tends to little more than nihilism. |
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I'm reading an interesting book by Daniel Flynn, "Why the Left Hates America." [And he does make a distinction between "left" and "liberal": Al Gore = liberal. Gore Vidal = leftist.] Besides writing books, one of the things he does (one of the things I would love to be able to do) is travel around the country visiting universities and giving lectures on conservatism. In the book he mentions some of the encounters he has had with rabidly angry students and faculty who often shouted him down if, in fact, they allowed him to speak at all. A thought occurred to me and it's one I've had often: What could cause people to be filled with such fervor (particularly males, who instigate most of the rough and rowdy) for concepts such as "diversity" and "tolerance" and then turn right around and rabidly censor and heckle others to the point of reminding one of what a Nazi book burning must have looked like? It's astonishing. It's a highly emotionally-charged phenomenon and has very little to do with the intellect. Normally such an act would tend to label one as a dangerous or thoughtless nut. What could motive men to do this? And then a thought occurred to me: Sex. Of course.
There's really no down side to regurgitation the ideas of political correctness, relativism, and multiculturalism � particularly by men on campus amongst a young crowd. It allows one to look sensitive, righteous, caring and protective. Yeah, it's a herd mentality. A real man would fight for both truth and justice and not just stick his finger in the air ala Bill Clinton and see which way the wind is blowing. But the reality of sex (and correct me if I'm wrong, you social psychologists out there) is that women do the choosing. If a man has to choose between "doing the right thing" and "spouting leftist propaganda", and one of them is more likely to make them look attractive to a girl, then even a flunky Skinnerian behaviorist could figure this one out. I think this jibes with what Michael Medved (who used to be a leftist) has said about the numerous 60's protests he attended: These rallies were the best place for men to pick up women and, quite often from the men's standpoint, attending such an event was exclusively in the interest of picking up women. And apparently it was a smart play because he said the women would just go weak at the knees for the men who came to these radical protest events. Just another possible dimension to the split between liberals and conservatives. There's no denying that sex and attitudes toward sex define major fault lines between the two. In this recent election I believe something like 59% of married people with children voted for Bush. About the same percentage of single people voted for Kerry. You'll find similar divides concerning abortion, gay marriage, etc. The insinuation, at least from my rough theory, is that once you're married a loose outlook on sex is not desirable. In fact, it could be downright catastrophic. If one is young with few attachments then restrictions and taboos make less sense. It also makes one wonder if the true divide between liberal and conservative is the "idealism" of youth vs. the practicality and wisdom of the elders. It may simply reflect different attitudes about sex among those who are unattached and actively shopping the market, so to speak, as opposed to those who have their commitments and families made or underway. A thorough survey of attitudes among women on campus would shed much light on this. I have little doubt what those attitudes are but you never know for sure until you get the data. But the more interesting question is why those attitudes should be what they are in the first place. It surely doesn't seem in the female's best interest to be promiscuous. No doubt one may find the fingerprints of radical feminism behind this. |
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Here's more coursework for next year's returning class to Advanced Conservative Studies. They say one of conservatism's main and best features is epistemological humility. The opposite is Rationalism. You have until the end of January to read this. Have a nice Christmas vacation.
Rationalism in politics Michael Oakeshott Cambridge Journal, Volume I, 1947.
Your assignment is to write at least 300 words on how this relates to modern liberalism in Europe and America. Or you can tell me to stick it in my ear. |
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Stick it in Chirac's ear!
Looks interesting . . . adding to my "stack of stuff." |
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I think what intends to be a review of a book I'm currently reading turns out to be a nice little primer on conservatism itself. From FirstThings:
And it's apparent I must insert some Alexis de Tocqueville into the discussion...as soon as I read something by him, that it. |
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I'm still wading through that Rationalist article but there really is some good stuff in there:
Not in the above description, but in other descriptions of Rationlism I observe some of my own bad habits and tendencies. But the above surely describes either the cause or an effect of an arrogance seen in many these days. |
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Technical and Practical Knowledge
from Rationalism in Politics [The previous link I posted to this article appears to be dead.] This article seems to be freely available on the net but in case I've abused fair use let me try to make up for it by pointing you all to the book, Rationalism in Politics and other Essays by Michael Oakeshott.
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It appears we are quite incomplete (and even dangerous) human beings if we have art without science and science without art. We might all individually be predisposed to being good at book knowledge as opposed to practical knowledge, or the other way around, but our weaknes in one area or the other is not made up for by simply focusing more on the areas where we are strongest. If we do then I think we end up in some very unhealthy and unbalanced situations such as the typical university setting these days (which was confirmed to me once again by the experiences related to me by my niece's boyfriend who is fresh out of college). We can become tyrannical in our preference for book knowledge if we are inexperienced at the practical, not good at, afraid to be shamed for trying it, or resentful of those who are good at it. When we beg to be appreciated for our clever brains we can create an atmosphere where humble yet vital experience is downgraded and sneared at. |
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I would like to relay what I thought were some very wise and enlightening words from Jerry Muller from his book, Conservatism. I think these words help to frame the whole liberal/conservative question. As I've said before, and with good reason, you can be a "liberal" in the sense of wanting to preserve our liberties and be more than at home with conservatives, at least the America conception of conservatism (which is the only variety, the more that I read this book, that I would wish to be associated with).
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http://dir.salon.com/news/feat...16/susans/index.html
Mayor Koch said that she would burn in the Ninth Hell for her anti-Israel statements. She also said wonderful things such as "the white race is the cancer of the planet." We will miss her. mm <*)))))>< |
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Dusting off this thread . . .
Here's a good article about how David Mamet has moved from a liberal perspective to a more conservative one. - http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbear...ults/sda/adventi.htm It takes awhile to get through, but is worth the effort. Think about your own experiences as you go through and share your reflections.
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Phil:
I read the same article this AM when perusing the news. Though I don't relate to all of it, it comes pretty close to my own experience and personal growth. IMO, I think that some of this is due to the natural process of getting older ( to paraphrase Winston Churchill), but I think for me, it was more that I started to recognize the dogmatic liberal approach for what it was, narrow and uncompromising, which is exactly what liberals accuse conservatives of being. In addition, the events of 9/11 also served to galvanize this process. After I read Mamet's piece, I ended up over here (I am not sure why at this point) for the rebuttal. |
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AMH, in Spiral Dynamics terms, we might view Mamet's "conversion" as a movement to develop the Orange and Blue levels that were so obviously weak in him. This is the problem with many liberals -- they've been indoctrinated with (Green) liberal principles from an early age and have picked up Green's implicit reaction to Blue and Orange excesses, but have never experienced nor even reflected on what might be good and healthy in those levels, which are where "conservative" principles reside.
A movement from Green to Yellow could also signal a reclaiming of conservative values. I don't hear that as much with Mamet, however. As usual, the Daily Kos article seems totally baffled as to why anyone would be disgruntled with the secular-progressive perspective. There's the usual spin and fallacies in the article (e.g., Exxon's response to its Alaskan spill = corporations ARE bad -- never mind what Exxon actually did to clean up the spill, and how, at any rate, this extreme example can hardly be used to characterize corporate behavior.) |
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I agree, Phil - Spiral Dynamics is really a useful tool for creating a framework for understanding this. In my case, I clearly went from a mostly Green perspective as an undergrad, eventually migrated into the private sector, where I was able to create some balance over the years. For me, this helped with the "natural" progression of becoming more balanced. ( at least I think I am balanced |
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Liberal and conservatives, conservatives and liberals.