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Posted
Phil, I am starting to realize that there are several giabytes of my writings that I published in other forums but never here at Shalomplace, so, I'll be flooding your Discussion Boards over the next few weeks 'til it is all safely offsite data-stored Big Grin (tongue planted firmly in cheek, but I do have some schtuff I'll post as different sojourners pass through and prompt old musings of mine) ...

starting with some poetry:


Liminal Threshold Fun Cool

i love the marshland's looks and sounds
for my childhood was taken up there
through mile after mile of broken, bent reeds
i passed time with never a care

on the opposite side was the river,
it travelled from way up north
thousands of miles it came to deliver
what no one had beckoned forth

for countless hours we'd play on its banks
making cowbellies in its dark mud
she freely bestowed gifts of driftwood and fish
and, when ships passed, her foaming white suds

but the childhood memory that stays with me most?
bright brilliant Saturday afternoons
my grandmother'd take me inside that dark church
where she'd hum hauntingly beautiful tunes

it was otherwise silent and reverent and holy
sweet scented candles burned everywhere
but the light that intrigued me burns in my memory still
'twas a red flame that was glowing up *there *

maybe 'cause i was so very little back then
or perhaps the altar so very tall
the light from the candle inside that red glass
seemed so very awfully small

yet all the attention seemed pointed that way
'twas where steps led up to the big cross
and on it there hung this pitiful man
prompting memories of people i'd loss

near his feet between bouquets of flowers
the ones that my grandmother had brought
was a little gold house with a little white veil
where God lives or so i was taught

she'd smooth out the cloths and linens so white
and polish the chalice of gold
she'd refill crucibles with water and wine
that the next day would be blood i was told

well imagine the awe in an eight year boy
soaking up everything grandmother taught
imagine the thoughts that would run through his mind
the impressions that all of this wrought

there were questions that would arrive later
but for then we just stayed to our task
years after she died and i'd grown and moved on
there was no one i was willing to ask

for they all seemed to buy into grandmother's scheme
for meaning and purpose in life
they never would question or wonder or dream
and who was i to invite them to strife?

their strife was o'er, their battle won
never a doubt assailed firm beliefs
as for me, my battle was just beginning
of angst and of fear and of grief

may i decrease and you increase
was my constant vigil and prayer
til others might have a problem here
in knowing who's standing there

i willed to become like the man on the cross
who lived in that little gold house
but the faith my grandmother had given was gone
or was as small as that tiny church mouse

i continued to go through the actions of faith
and in time i raised kids of my own
taught them all the things that my grandmother'd taught
planted all the same seeds that she'd sown

as for me, in the meantime, i delved into books
theology, philosophy and prayer
but the feelings of bright, sunny Saturday noons
in church--- never returned to me there

i resolved to do everything "just because"
and forsaking my reasoning mind
i decided i'd wait for my God to return
in His own due season and time

i believed in goodness and beauty and truth
though they seemed to lack any support
was the universe friendly? was meaning intact?
would life's loves just some day abort?

for the heat death of the universe
is a verity simple to know
it'll all burn out without fanfare or care
with not even an afterglow

but some folks talk of an afterlife
full of goodness and beauty and truth
with their loved ones and the man on the cross
all the prophets, Naomi and Ruth

fearful souls harbor such feeble glad thoughts
and i'm glad it consoles them so
as for me and my people i'd like the same, too
but how is one ever to know?

is there primal ground and primal being?
unconditional truth and meaning?
all i could do was to take that leap
with no visible prop for the leaning

i would cling to beauty just because
of the hold that it had on me
as for goodness and truth
i surrendered there, too
unconditionally

i gave up the fight and let everything go
and abandoned myself to the flow
only truth and beauty and goodness perdured
no other god would i know

and i thought long and hard about all my desires
of the assurances and convictions i lacked
if i had them what would i do differently?
and no answers ever came back

in the dark night of faith, in love i'd persist
giving up my long search for the grail
the journey became my destination
on an ocean of love i would sail

and that ocean was silent, gave never a clue
of its origins, its depths or its floor
but it gently caressed me and placed me down
on the sands where it kisses its shore

and the sights there were vaguely familiar
for i awakened in marsh grass and reeds
right close to the river and next to the church
where grandmother had planted her seeds

still everything differed while all was the same
it was something within me had changed
other people went on with their business
but my programs had been rearranged

i no longer cared what they thought about me
and i no longer needed their praise
the guilt and the fear that they'd used to control
they could keep for the rest of my days

i had somehow come into to the Oneness
wherein each of us is quite the same
on the other hand and very strangely enough
each still had their very own name

all i did was to sleep a long sleep
all i did was get tired of the pain
all i did was surrender my every desire
every guilt, every fear, every shame

and the moment i quit and gave all of this up
is indelibly etched in my soul
and i'll never go back to the ways of the world
and i'll never rejoin their fold

all i did was to wake up and see
as if seeing the very first time
my learned habits and fears and lunacy
and the havoc they wreaked in my mind

who told you that God would not love you
unless you conformed to His laws?
who told you that you must act this way or that
in order to win His applause?

well i'm telling you now they were lying
but it's just that they just didn't know
they were only repeating the things that were taught
from ages and ages ago

and i know that this news is quite hard to believe
and that some will continue to sleep
and i'm not trying to change you or shepherd some herd
as if you weren't people but sheep

i'm just dancing my dance and living quite free
and writing my poems and my musings
knowing all shall be well and all is well
despite what we're finding confusing

i'm telling you, though, to learn to trust
the almost silent voice within
i'm really suggesting you quiet it all down
and learn anew how to begin

for this is mostly about new beginnings
each moment, each second, each day
to see each person and each event
afresh in most every way

for each is brand new and each has become
the sum total of what's gone before
and the sum of that total changes so often
'tis folly to ever keep score

'tis the keeping score that's worst of all
to think winners necessitate losers
there's no merit, reward, recognition
we're all beggars and beggars are choosers

but look at all the good choices
they're all blessed and love-filled and fun
there's no need to compete with each other
for these blessings have only begun

neither death nor life nor angel
not any principality
can take you away from the Father's love
which is yours for eternity

i tell you again, these blessings are free
the graces are there for the choosing
but you'll never experience this heavenly peace
'til you quit thinking "winning or losing"

you can't win a reward that is already yours
you can't lose what can never be lost
you can't store up treasures to purchase a gift
when it's given without any cost

would you ever turn away from Him?
well know this, that if you should
He'll pursue your love forever
like any parent would

would a lover leave her own beloved?
would a parent ever leave a child?
would a Creator forget a creature?
not even for awhile

the truth, the beauty, the goodness, the love
the solidarity
are nothing we could ever attain
they simply are, you see?

to see, to look, to gaze in awe
is a very simple task
to wake up and see what's there to see
is all the Master asks

for after you awaken, the task's already done
compassion flows out naturally
we'll be not-two, not-one

the love will flow out unawares
left hands won't know their right
the holy will never know holiness
the seeing will see without sight

self-consciousness will simply disappear
there will be no "me" to harm
we'll all be "I's" inside I AM
we'll all be arm in arm

we'll have all been there ten thousand years
bright shining as the sun
each generation's moms and dads
each daughter and each son

the loves we'll have shared continuing on
the pains we'll have shared forgotten
with the God we'll have known from ages hence
within each of our hearts begotten

where the doing becomes being
and object and subject are One
apophatic and kataphatic
will be liminal threshold fun !

'til then i'll still enter the darkened church
humming grandmother's light-filled hymns
no longer with thoughts that run through my head
i'll just sit and i'll stare at Him

i'll just sit and i'll gaze at the little red glow
and i'll smile at the little gold house
i'll look up at my friend on the cross as He winks
as He squeaks through that little church mouse

my grandmother will smile, not from up above
but from a dwelling place deep within
and i'll know i'll be with her bye and bye
but there's much to do until then

like go down to the river and play in the mud
and kick up the dirty white foam
like be anywhere that i happen to be
knowing home is wherever i roam

in the city or the marshland
while at work or when at play
i'll silently gaze at Him everywhere
and here i'll always stay

all i do now is unconditional
all i do now is just because
all i do now is wonder how people can be
the way that i once was

all may be well, all can be well
all will be well i'm certain
all shall be well is all you know
when you pull away the curtain

don't listen to others describing the sights
don't imagine what lies behind
tear open the curtain and look for yourself
the scenery here is just fine

no rights reserved, not copyrighted, tell everyone you wrote it and forward
it around the world a dozen times ;>Wink johnboy
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Anawhimsical Literati

don't take solace in the notion
that few will ever escape
the academic gulag archipelago
to pillage, plunder and rape

the literary modalities and language conventions;
forewarned is now forearmed
sTYLe iS conTEnT ! foRm 'tis sUbstancE !
is taught in their bAck waRds?

this here medIuM is mY meSsage
and my mcCluhanesque disregard
broke me out of that asylum
with literary superego never formed
+++

this literati mouse will never roar
nor disturb your publishing housing
suffering no nhihil obstatic rage
censors liborum there arousing

with pentameter uniambic, lacking onomotopoeia, running free

ugly blackbird, caged, is singing, in the middle of Dark Nights

enraged nightengale is winging over there to silence His Delight

but the orthodoxy prison lost its captive! warbling Logos? escapee!
++

in the beginning was the Word,
then utmost Silence making us wary
in the interim there came Jesus
as the Father's poetic commentary
but some would have none of it
and they gave Him back His Gift

suffer me no notions preconceived,
Barrabas-giving consensus gentiums
or I'll miss Him when She returns again
at the Wiccan Woods Convention
no signs or portents shall distract me from my Lover, or boy will I be miffed!
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Kung Lite

solipsism out of a wet paper bag
never fighting its metaphysical way
because it is radically empirical

objective bicsuits of reality never cook
in subjectivism's oven
oven set always on hermeneutical

the immanent hungering for transcendence
the apophatic being a liturgical burger short at the happy meal of celebrations theological
the transcendent starving for immanence
the kataphatic lacking a numinous sandwich at the picnic of the mystically existential

elevators of skeptics don't go to the top
lights of credulous on with nobody home
watch the aesthetes and ascetics go bust
tao, dharma and logos forsaking either-or
for paradox, mystery, creative tension, both-and proofs surrendering to fundamental trust
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Flexegesis of I Corinthians 12

What we bring to humanity's table
is unique or have they told ya?
That is why I'll never try here
to remake or to remold ya.

With a unity of mission
and with ministries so diverse,
To deny e pluribus unum
would engender a hellish curse.

We've clues to how things are in heaven,
knowing how things are on earth,
With every strength and every weakness
from nature, nurture or from birth.

In heaven, the British are policeman,
French chefs cook for Italian lovers;
the mechanics there are German;
the Swiss run a government, like no others.

Now hell's not very different,
just the people take new roles.
As you try to make them like you,
What a mockery there unfolds.

The Italians run the government
and the Germans are police;
The British cook for cold Swiss lovers
in the French mechanics' grease.

When the Lord God made each woman,
When the Goddess made each man,
He knew what He was doing
As She fashioned creation's plan.

At the height of this creation
With a most resplendent beauty,
People contribute quite uniquely
Each according to their duty.

So I'll take this lesson here
Not to refashion or remold ya.
But should Eternity become a problem
It won't be cause I haven't told ya!
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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9999 End of Program, A Metanoia

tomorrow is a special day: nine, nine, ninety-nine
corresponding to computer code
encountered at that cyber node
at the end of my program line

i will celebrate tomorrow
by emptying my cache
many tapes to be overwritten
bytes in memory that aren't fitting
algorithms to dump to trash

general protection faults abounding:
my needs to be right and to be perceived so
to be consulted and understood, to know
alarms within me ever-sounding
invalid parameters finding
emotional habits of fear
neuroses always near

defense mechanisms binding
my dignity and "worthies" feeding
image of God ever-distorted
leaving self and others broken-hearted

critical error requires deleting
a program, conditional love, of course
has many programs crashed of late
must find a way to terminate
love's fatal virus or trojan horse

soon with code rewritten, every line
end of virulent program executing
in metanoia and with grace rebooting
gonna party like its nineteen, ninety nine

9/9/99 End of Program: Conditional Love

johnboy
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<Asher>
Posted
LOL, that letter wasn't supposed to be posted! Smiler Line breaks got all ruined. Oh well. This is some of the recent stuff I'm fooling around with...hope some of it is intelligableSmiler
 
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There was an old woman who lived in a shoe . .

(Oh, forget it!) Big Grin
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<Asher>
Posted
most of us poets are still fooling around with our shoelaces. Come on Phil, post us a ditty or two. Or anything;o)
 
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quote:
i no longer cared what they thought about me
and i no longer needed their praise
I can see that. But tough noogie. You�re getting it anyway. That�s an outstanding poem. It�s amazing that you could construct a seemingly complete spiritual autobiography in just 65 verses and do each so well. It seems a shame to highlight any one verse at the expense of the others but I must!


on the opposite side was the river,
it travelled from way up north
thousands of miles it came to deliver
what no one had beckoned forth

as for me, in the meantime, i delved into books
theology, philosophy and prayer
but the feelings of bright, sunny Saturday noons
in church--- never returned to me there

and i thought long and hard about all my desires
of the assurances and convictions i lacked
if i had them what would i do differently?
and no answers ever came back

in the dark night of faith, in love i'd persist
giving up my long search for the grail
the journey became my destination
on an ocean of love i would sail

i'm just dancing my dance and living quite free
and writing my poems and my musings
knowing all shall be well and all is well
despite what we're finding confusing

for each is brand new and each has become
the sum total of what's gone before
and the sum of that total changes so often
'tis folly to ever keep score

'til then i'll still enter the darkened church
humming grandmother's light-filled hymns
no longer with thoughts that run through my head
i'll just sit and i'll stare at Him

i'll just sit and i'll gaze at the little red glow
and i'll smile at the little gold house
i'll look up at my friend on the cross as He winks
as He squeaks through that little church mouse


Despite whatever pain might be involved, somehow I think most people would think themselves fortunate if such a poem could describe their lives.
 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The following is a random thought that isn't directed at anyone in particular. It's not a rebuttal. It's not an accusation. It's a random thought that I didn't know where to put so I thought I'd turn JB's thread into a junk drawer. Wink


I'm not so much interesting in macheteing my way to a non-dual state of mind, although surely such perspectives are useful. I think the most useful and natural thing to do is to learn to live with the indelicate balances and opposites that seem inherent in all things and to find better ways to accommodate � not the ultimate balance � but the ultimate imbalance so that steady states never facilitate steady Police states, if you know what I mean. In an imperfect world we can balance out our differences and achieve some sort of functional decency. With wisdom we can ever-refine that decency. But as soon as we become good enough at it we may be tempted to make the mistake and imagine that we are capable of perfection. We then may think we can be rid of the opposites altogether and in their place institute a Grand Unity. After all, it seems so clearly in sight. From the perspective of one of the opposites it may look like perfection is achievable if only the opposite opposite were removed or one's own opposite refined. (This perspective also presents the alluring possibility of some opposite hallowed middle ground devoid of opposites).

Wherever we are, I think the trick is probably not to require a certain state of affairs � an absolute ideal � to exist in the world before our supposed perfection can be achieved. We can live that ideal where we are and with what we have without requiring that the rest of the world be re-ordered in order to do so. But those who are fighting those who are attempting to re-order the world should not be mistaken for the latter. Freedom is a necessary fight. We must be free first in order to openly disagree�to openly be opposites.

And if we're guided by wisdom and love then this problem gets a whole heck of a lot easier to solve and requires very few words to do so.
 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Brad Nelson:
[qb]

1) I'm not so much interesting in macheteing my way to a non-dual state of mind , although surely such perspectives are useful.

2) We then may think we can be rid of the opposites altogether and in their place institute a Grand Unity. After all, it seems so clearly in sight.

3) From the perspective of one of the opposites it may look like perfection is achievable if only the opposite opposite were removed or one's own opposite refined. (This perspective also presents the alluring possibility of some opposite hallowed middle ground devoid of opposites).
[/qb]
the alluring possibility of some opposite hallowed middle ground devoid of opposites

the coincidentia oppositorum
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Brad, those quotes were so wisdom-filled, I did not want to taint 'em with my reflections in the same post.

I will now proceed to tarnish them below.

Let's consider a few quotes from SEX, ECOLOGY, SPIRITUALITY by Ken Wilber as pertaining to what Wilber calls The Pre/Trans Fallacy . [Brad, this is not to be confused with Sex and the City, starring Ferris Bueller's wife.]

First, consider the importance he gives to his version of this fallacy:
quote:
Ever since I began writing on the distinctions between prerational (or prepersonal) states of awareness and transrational (or transpersonal) states - what I called the pre/trans fallacy - I have become more convinced than ever that this understanding is absolutely crucial for grasping the nature of higher (or deeper) or truly spiritual states of consciousness.
Whoa!

Next, let's consider the definition:
quote:
The essence of the pre/trans fallacy is itself fairly simple: since both prerational states and transrational states are, in their own ways, nonrational, they appear similar or even identical to the untutored eye.
So what?

quote:
In the first, all higher and transrational states are reduced to lower and prerational states. Genuine mystical or contemplative experiences, for example, are seen as a regression or throwback to infantile states of narcissism, oceanic adualism, indissociation, and even primitive autism. This is, for example, precisely the route taken by Freud in The Future of an Illusion.
One can understand what he is driving at, above, but don't swallow it hook, line and sinker just yet. He cites another peril:

quote:
On the other hand, if one is sympathetic with higher or mystical states, but one still confuses pre and trans, then one will elevate all prerational states to some sort of transrational glory (the infantile primary narcissism, for example, is seen as an unconscious slumbering in the mystico unio). Jung and his followers, of course, often take this route, and are forced to read a deeply transpersonal and spiritual status into states that are merely indissociated and undifferentiated and actually lacking any sort of integration at all.
Wow, in one fell swoop, Wilber has just throughly dissed both Freud and Jung, both unquestionable giants in the history of psychology, their works having profound and pervasive impact on many philosophical and religious journeys of the masses over many, many decades.

quote:
Freud was a reductionist, Jung an elevationist - the two sides of the pre/trans fallacy. And the point is that they are both half right and half wrong. A good deal of neurosis is indeed a fixation/regression to prerational states, states that are not to be glorified. On the other hand, mystical states do indeed exist, beyond (not beneath) rationality, and those states are not to be reduced.
Wilber, I am going to contend, may not have been delicate enough in his choice of philosophical-psychological surgical instruments, thus, in part, macheteing his way to a non-dual state of mind, thinking he has rid himself of opposites altogether and in their place instituted a Grand Unity, imagining that, from the perspective of one of the opposites, it looks like perfection is achievable if only the opposite opposite were removed. [One will note my contention was laregly informed by the genius of Mr. Nelson.]

Even then, is whole-psyche integration to be equated with the alchemical coniunctio , the sacred marriage or hieros gamos , the coincidentia oppositorum as if humans could indeed stand on some hallowed middle ground devoid of opposites? Rather, shouldn't the predicates See-er of No Paradox or Consistent Comprehender be univocally applied to the Unnamable One, alone?

Could it be that some are attempting to get to heaven by refusing to stand on the ground? from Michael Washburn's article, "The Pre/Trans Fallacy Reconsidered."

Let's look at this closer.
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wilber has opened himself up to some rather facile critiques, in part, due to his own oversimplification of the dynamics involved in transpersonal theory.

A most enjoyable read is an essay by Christopher Smith, "Aduality vs. Nonduality: A Case of Semantic Gerrymandering? - A criticism of Ken Wilber's thesis of Nonduality by contrast of Freud's analysis of the phenomena of luminosity." It can be found here . He pretty much defends all of the Freudians that Wilber slighted and his essay, itself, commits Wilber's ptf1 with its cynical reduction of the transegoic to the preegoic , to use a phrase of M. Washburn.

Another great article is that by Michael Washburn, Ph.D. who wrote "The Pre/Trans Fallacy Reconsidered," which can be found here. He pretty much defends all of the Jungians that Wilber slighted:
quote:
It is a serious mistake to conflate pre and trans states. It is a fallacy to infer structural identity from phenomenological similarity . But inferring structural identity from phenomenological similarity is only one kind of pre/trans fallacy. There is another kind: inferring structural dissimilarity from phenomenological difference. It is equally a fallacy to argue that pre and trans states, in differing in phenomenologically crucial ways, must for that reason be expressions of two different and widely dissimilar sets of psychic structures, the many phenomenological similarities between pre and trans states notwithstanding. Wilber, it seems, commits just this fallacy--which, following his abbreviation scheme, can be called ptf-3.
In essence, Washburn argues for a spiral dynamic:
quote:
Working my way through "The Pre/Trans Fallacy" (1980b), I realized that I disagreed with Wilber's answer to the pre/trans question and that, in general perspective, I sided with Jung. Wilber's challenge to Jung thus helped me clarify my own thinking. Specifically, it led me to the idea of regression in the service of transcendence, which is a kind of regression that, by no means a merely regressive about-face, is the downward loop of a developmental spiral that reconnects the ego with its nonegoic sources on the way to a higher integration with those sources.
But back to Wilber, who was correct in the following regard, and this may be an underlying dynamic in Brad's lament:
quote:
In the elevationist position, the transpersonal and transrational mystical union is seen as the ultimate omega point, and since egoic-rationality does indeed tend to deny this higher state, then egoic-rationality is pictured as the low point of human possibilities, as a debasement, as the cause of sin and separation and alienation. When rationality is seen as the anti-omega point, so to speak, as the great Anti-Christ, then anything nonrational gets swept up and indiscriminately glorified as a direct route to the Divine, including much that is infantile and regressive and prerational : anything to get rid of that nasty and skeptical rationality. "I believe because it is absurd" (Tertullian) - there is the battle cry of the elevationist (a strand that runs deeply through Romanticism of any sort).
Washburn writes: "Descenders are those who, having fallen prey to ptf-2, yield to regression in the false belief that, in doing so, they are achieving transcendence.

In the next post, I'll amplify this critique.
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
To Freud, the state of nonduality is not merely an error in judgment, it is a peculiar phenomenon, deserving of psycho-analytical explanation -indicative of profound dissolution of ego, to a primitive narcissistic state. To Wilber, it is not retreat or dissolution, it is awareness of the highest level of spirit. Could the advanced, complete, stage of human evolution - a mystical oneness with the entire universe - encountered only by masters of mystical arts such as Zen - really be confused with the most primitive, narcissistic stage of human development - experienced by infants?

Ken Wilber swallows oceans whole. Is it fair to ask him to bring back a lobster? Or maybe something smaller, like an oyster's pearl?

Maybe not. Maybe that's even silly. Its perfectly OK to suggest that you can swallow an ocean, but, as monological as Freud and Carl Sagan are, I'm sure they're willing to accept that asking someone to bring back a such proof is going too far... perhaps it's even rude. We accept of course that this is a spiritual trip and that you are limited only to psychic luggage. But, while a fish holon is material and too cumbersome to lug back, what about a holon made of ideas?

You see, there's still room for some good old skepticism, along with the wonder. Why not bring back a theorem? How about a nice, neat explanation of Fermat's last theorem - the one he promised in his footnotes? How about the grand unified theory - unify the weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational forces? That one makes good sense too, since it supports the "Oneness" quite nicely. Hey, if your in touch with one-verse, if in fact you make up the universe, a simple theory isn't beyond you, is it?
Wilber writes:
quote:
"I think the sages are the growing tip of the secret impulse of evolution. I think they are the leading edge of the self-transcending drive that always goes beyond what went before. I think they embody the very drive of the Kosmos toward greater depth and expanding consciousness. I think they are riding the edge of a light beam racing towards a rednezvous with God."
Smith counters:
quote:
Sages have been on this "racing light beam" for thousands of years. If one considers the continuum from primative shaman, for tens of thousands of years. Yet, while Wilber assures us they are at this very moment racing towards a "rendezvous with God", no But such true revelations are not forthcoming from the mystics. Buddhists don't reveal foundational knowledge, knowledge that is testable, replicable. Not once. Ever. And this is with thousands of years and thousands of spiritual journeys yet. Not one psychic traveler has ever stumbled across a theorem. Coincidence?

What is not coincidence is that where science has offered profound revelations, Wilber and the mystics submit quaint, conflicted and circular generalities. Where science strives to reveal lucid, valid and often insightful laws, mystics offer convoluted koans. Where science profoundly revolutionizes thought, mysticism offers prosaic, bland, and suspiciously timely homilies. Why didn't the mystics warn us of the nature of the solar system first? Why didn't they point out acid rain, or global warming, until they were already openly discussed by science? . Where are the revolutionary ideas really coming from? Where are the revolutionary ideas really coming from? Why does mysticism, which is reported to be in tune with higher modes of thinking, fail so utterly to offer anything of use, just as flawed and disparaged modes of thought, such as the magical and the mythical, also fail?
Now, assuredly, this cynical take is attacking many strawmystics, HOWEVER --- this shows what one can open oneself up to by yielding to regression and then claiming transcendence, as Wilber, himself warns:
quote:
Many of the elevationist movements, alas, are not beyond reason but beneath it. They think they are, and they announce themselves to be, climbing the Mountain of Truth; whereas, it seems to me, they have merely slipped and fallen and are sliding rapidly down it, and the exhilarating rush of skidding uncontrollably down evolution's slope they call "following your bliss." As the earth comes rushing up at them at terminal velocity, they are bold enough to offer this collision course with ground zero as a new paradigm for the coming world transformation, and they feel oh-so-sorry for those who watch their coming crash with the same fascination as one watches a twenty-car pileup on the highway, and they sadly nod as we decline to join in that particular adventure. True spiritual bliss, in infinite measure, lies up that hill, not down it.
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It is time to note Washburn's admiration of Wilber, something that I share. Washburn's perspective on a spiraling path of transcendence for individuals is a well nuanced appreciation of Jung over against what I think is Wilber's misconstruction. It also may provide some food for additional synthetic analysis vis a vis this thread at Shalomplace on Spiral Dynamics ?
quote:
Although this chapter is critical of Ken Wilber's thought, it is also a tribute to Wilber.[1] For like almost everyone else devoted to transpersonal theory, I am greatly indebted to Wilber. His work--along with that of Stanislav Grof--clearly led the way during the 1970s and 1980s. Wilber's genius at synthesizing ideas and his particular integration of spirituality and psychology, breathtaking in scope, elevated transpersonal theory to a much higher level. Wilber, along with Grof and Jung, was a primary influence on me when I was first struggling to clarify my own thinking on transpersonal issues. My first book, The Ego and the Dynamic Ground, although critical of Wilber, was very much a product of Wilber's influence, as is evident on almost every page. That book, now out in a second edition (1995), was conceived as a critical response to Wilber's structural-hierarchical perspective. It was written with Wilber in mind as both a formidable intellectual adversary and a towering intellectual role model. Wilber has played a vitally important role in my intellectual development, and I want to begin this chapter--especially because it is a critical chapter--by expressing my appreciation for the immense contribution he has made to transpersonal theory and to my own understanding of transpersonal ideas.
 
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Wilber on Jung:
quote:
In my opinion, Jung errs consistently to the opposite side [to the side opposite Freud and ptf-1]. He correctly and very explicitly recognizes the transpersonal or numinous dimension, but he often fuses or confuses it with prepersonal structures.... Thus not only does Jung occasionally end up glorifying certain infantile mythic forms of thought, he also frequently gives a regressive treatment to Spirit.
 
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Washburn responds:
quote:
But this, I suggest, is a serious misinterpretation of Jung. For although it is true that Jungian individuation involves a descent--namely, a descending return of the ego to the nonegoic potentials of the deep psyche-- this descent is not a merely regressive U-turn to origins. It is, rather, the first phase of a return-then-ascend, reroot-then-regenerate spiral. It is a retracing of ground that, in submitting the ego to the transformative power of the deep unconscious, leads ultimately to a higher ego-unconscious, whole-psyche integration (the alchemical coniunctio, the sacred marriage or hieros gamos, the coincidentia oppositorum). Jung's theory of individuation is, accordingly, a spiral theory. Wilber, however, having ruled out the possibility of a spiral to transcendence, interprets Jung's account of the ego's return to the collective unconscious as a simple U-turn of regression.
So, johnboy's caveat to those enamored of nondualism is the same as that offered to the deconstructionists. There has got to be a re turn, a re construction, a re generation. Integration involves a holistic individuation process with the maintenance of a strong ego thus avoiding many regressive difficulties.

quote:
Although Wilber acknowledges the therapeutic value of regression in the service of the ego , he most definitely does not believe that a return to the pre (or what was pre) is needed in order to ascend to the trans. As we have seen, he believes that movement toward the pre (or what was pre) and movement toward the trans proceed in opposite directions without coinciding at any point. The former movement unfolds in an exclusively descending direction toward lower psychic structures; the latter movement unfolds in an exclusively ascending direction toward higher psychic structures. Wilber rejects the possibility that return to the pre (or to what was pre) is part of movement toward the trans. Any such return, he says in "The Pre/Trans Fallacy" (1980b), would be a mere U-turn to origins forfeiting the gains of previous development. Or, as he puts it in Sex, Ecology, Spirituality (1995), any such return would be a one-way trip on the "regress express" of "retro-Romanticism."
No, this is to be followed by another return, another reconstruction, another regeneration.
 
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Finally:
quote:
In my opinion, there is a middle ground. One does not need to double the number of nonegoic psychic levels to avoid a pre/trans error. Such a doubling is unnecessary and unparsimonious. It is entirely possible that many nonegoic structures--or, to use a term I prefer, nonegoic potentials--have both pre and trans developmental expressions. It is entirely possible that nonegoic potentials such as dynamism, the body, instinctuality, feeling, and the creative imagination express themselves early in life in pre ways and then express themselves later in life--that is, after the ego is mature and has been reconnected with nonegoic potentials--in trans ways. For example, although the primary matrix and spiritual wholeness are by no means the same, they may nonetheless be expressions of a common ultimate ground, what I have called the Dynamic Ground. The primary matrix can be understood as preegoic fusion with this Ground , spiritual wholeness as a higher reunion of the ego with this Ground . Also, for example, although preegoic magico-mythical symbols and transegoic archetypes are by no means the same, they also may have a common source: the creative, autosymbolic imagination. Preegoic symbols can be understood as spontaneous productions of the autosymbolic process forged in response to the prerational, preoperational body-ego, higher transegoic archetypes as spontaneous productions of the autosymbolic process forged in response to the mature ego (once it has embarked upon the path of transcendence). I have mapped these and other pre and trans expressions of nonegoic potentials in The Ego and the Dynamic Ground (1995) and Transpersonal Psychology in Psychoanalytic Perspective (1994).
The lesson is: you CAN go back.

The more important lesson is: you MUST return.

This is true for the apophatic and kataphatic, the nondual and dual, the nonrational and rational, etc etc etc Cool and when I say return, I mean repeatedly recrossing these liminal thresholds.

Truly,
jb
 
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BTW, Phil has already weighed in on this issue. From an old post:

quote:
I, too, have enjoyed Wilber's writings, although I much prefer the transpersonal psychology of Michael Washburn. Wilber's work suggests some sort of terminus in a state of non-personal, non-relational enlightenment and tends to view relational spirituality as but a steppingstone unto that higher state. Of course, his being a Buddhist-type wouldn't have anything to do with that, eh?
Thank you, Phil. Well said. Razzer

truly yours,
jb
 
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re: The Ego and the Dynamic Ground: A Transpersonal Theory of Human Development

Reviewer: George Ochsenfeld (Monee, Illinois USA) - This is the best book on transpersonal psychology I've ever read. It does not require huge metaphysical leaps of faith. The explanations of the difficulties on the spiritual path related to reconnecting to the Dynamic Ground are nothing short of brilliant. It puts mystical experiences, Jungian psychology, and spiritual development into a clear, coherent model which makes perfect sense. I've used Washburn's model in a university level course I've taught on transpersonal psychology and have started a Washburn study group with my friends.

Reviewer: Craig Chalquist (Escondido, CA USA) -

Whatever may be said about the technicality of the alternatives offered here to the usual transpersonal paradigms, Washburn does a fine job of recogizing that our vitality as awakening beings isn't only to be found on the heights of spirit; it also lives in the vales, in the lowlands and places of origin. The problem with verticality worship is that "enlightenment" becomes a goal by which one transcends everything, leaps over everything, instead of working through unresolved conflicts and lingering vulnerabilities.

pax,
jb
 
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I'm wondering if you gents would mind starting a new thread on Ken Wilber's thoughts in the Christian Morality and Theology forum (or wherever else you think it might go). I'd hate to see the discussion of Wilber's work lost in what started out to be a sharing of poetry.

Wilber's work is indeed important. Whether or not one agrees with him on everything, you will eventually bump into his writings when you try to dialogue with people about spiritual transformation. I am currently listening to a tape series he's made on "Kosmic Consciousness." It provides a good summary of his current thinking.
 
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Phil said:
quote:
I'm wondering if you gents would mind starting a new thread on Ken Wilber's thoughts in the Christian Morality and Theology forum (or wherever else you think it might go). I'd hate to see the discussion of Wilber's work lost in what started out to be a sharing of poetry.
It is, upon reflection
Quite in your discretion
To make such requests at your home

But upon closer inspection
Of the thread name selection
You should phrase your request as a poem
 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Phil, you can move the Wilber part of the thread and entitle it elsewhere, but I was pretty much done anyway.

pax,
jb
 
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OK, maybe I will
If the topic will still
Continue to propagate on.

If it won't then I won't
So please let us don't
Make me wish it were a thread of its own.

Wink
 
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quote:
OK, maybe I will
If the topic will still
Continue to propagate on.

If it won't then I won't
So please let us don't
Make me wish it were a thread of its own.
Wonderfully spoken
This thread�s not yet broken
Twenty-Seven has thread started
Poetry and Pre/Trans have parted
 
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Light poetry for such heady topics?
Re: politics quite north of the tropics.
From John Derbyshire
(Does that rhyme with "quagmire"?)
He slices with wit arthroscopic
 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Diamond Vision

Men, in particular, are ready-made for uniforms and roles. In fact, we'd be absolutely lost without them. I have been missing a role for quite a while now, although I think I've done martyr, tortured sole, sensitive guy, victim, and more. But I can't remember playing a positive role since the role of "playful kid."

I'm reminded of roles and their importance as I watch a bunch of twenty to thirty-year-olds at the baseball field. I wouldn't doubt by looking at them that they might play some rather onerous roles outside of the baseball diamond. This is a military town for the most part. But most seem to be here to have fun tonight. Who do you suppose is having the better experience, the people playing the game or the one lovingly watching and describing it? I'd say right now it's a toss-up. It's such a beautiful day as I lean back on the railing at the top row of the aluminum bleachers. The low centerfield sun is gilding everything like King Midas and from where I'm sitting behind home plate, it is nearly blinding. I have to dip into a narrow shadow made by a large vertical pole just to find a spot to write on this blazing white page.

I suppose it's only appropriate that on the uniforms of one of the two teams is a drawing of a large beer mug. Somehow that signifies that it is a good time that is intended and not a trip to the World Series. There won't be any dugout-clearing brawls. There won't be any Roger Clemens head-hunting fastballs. The worst casualty will likely be sliding into first base through somebody else's spit. There are plenty of leagues that are more serious and professional than the one I am watching. That means in those other leagues that winning becomes more important than having fun, or that winning is the fun. But in this game you have a lot of "atta-boys" and "nice-tries". I seriously doubt most of these men find this same conciliatory environment at their jobs. So you see, there's a lot more going on out there on the field than meets the eye. It is not just some stupid kid's game where you swing a stick at a ball � something most of us do almost instinctively by the age of two. There is hidden meaning�perhaps even hidden from more than one of the spirited participants. But all they know is that feeling you get in the bones having played alongside other men. It's the hunt. It's deeply embedded in our DNA. If they were allowed to shoot the ball, smear fake blood on it and dance around in the moonlight howling victory then the would do so. Fortunately that is not allowed in most official rule books.

It's probably for the best that there appears to be only a smattering of wives and girlfriends. Guys sometimes need their space. And because guys can also be quite brutal and cruel to each other, it's debatable whether it's better to have the wife there for support or absent in order to have a better chance at staying a man in her eyes. But most women probably should catch a glimpse of these little boys in men's suits. They might see something they've been missing.

And of course, men rarely take part in a sport where there isn't some equivalent of an orgasm. Football has the touchdown. Basketball has the slam dunk. Hockey has the hat trick. Soccer has the bloody fight in the bleachers. And baseball has the biggest O of all � the home run. And that certainly must feel good to connect with the bat on the ball as that guy just did now. It has to feel good to hear the crack and the cheers and see the ball sailing over the fence. With two men on it might even qualify as a multiple Big O. But it's surely the "over the fence" part that adds that extra touch. Not only does it signify great strength but you are now thrust into another level, another time, another age. This may be a little boy's game but these are men now and even men need to have that sacred graduation acknowledged now and then. No more will you hear "Dumb ass�you go get the ball this time."[/i] No. There will be no angry words from your friends about another lost ball in the woods. At this level it is assumed that the ball is a deserving sacrifice to the baseball gods for such a feat. But things of such pleasurable glory are needed in order to bring balance to those other moments such as when the sure-catch fly ball sails over the center fielder's head as just happened a moment ago. Such is life. But even a momentary embarrassment is just another bond shared among the guys. F-up is just one of the many sacred roles they share including the role of friend, teammate, survivor, and man. This more than covers the damage. And if it won't, there's always the after-game beer.
 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yesterday I walked by some kind of rustic, but lovingly detailed, roadside monument. It consisted of a small wood cross in the rear with "Rob�2003" hand-painted on it in red. In front of this cross was a bower-bird like assortment of small, colorful artifacts. There were various small piles of rocks, part of a Spider-man action figure, half of a plastic egg, a carefully-arranged empty M&M's wrapper and a few other things which seemed to suggest a personal connection with the life of a young man or boy. At the very front of all this, and most prominent of all was a white t-shirt lovingly held down in place by rocks at its every corner, middle and side. There was a brightly colored silkscreened design festooned on the shirt as is typical of such shirts that young people might wear. I couldn't really divine much from the design. There was, I think, the word "cinco" imprinted on it.

This little sad monument was just at the side of the road and just at the side of a big dirt field that is used for off-road vehicles. There was this horrible thought in my mind of some kid being killed while enjoying a little dirt biking. Or perhaps he was hit while walking down the side of this road and that spot marked where the event happened. But I had not heard of any such tragedy. It's not that I necessarily would, but this site is directly across the street from where I live.

I spent a few moments contemplating this loving monument. It was made all the more loving by the sheer heartfelt roughness of it all. Rocks and plastics things and a rough-hewn cross and a shirt and a few more odd bits. But out of such things is our life composed. The thought of a mother, father or brother losing a young man or boy sort of hit me at some point, no doubt aided by the sincerity of this monument. I had walked a hundred yards past when I was inspired to pen a few words on the page. I did so. And then it occurred to me that I should take that page and add it to the pile of things on that roadside monument which I did, pinning that page under one of the existing rocks holding the shirt down.

Sadness is the strange joy we find when we are parted from what we love and realize how much we loved it.

Honestly, I'm not sure that even makes much sense. But the words felt right at the time and it felt right to leave them there.
 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Half Serious

"You can't be serious?"
She said with surprise
"I am indeed.
I am willing to die."

"But I love that laugh
I love all your jokes
I've told them myself
To so many folk"

But it's time to grow up
It's time to be smart
I've spent too many days
With a Merton clown heart

"But where will you go?
What will you say?
How can you change
Your own DNA?"

"A laugh is a thing
Not so easily found
How can you stop
Ah, quit kiddin' around"

I mean what I say
It's time for good byes
To all of that mirth
And all of those pies

I need to grow up
Take control of my fate
I need to find love
Before it's too late

It's time for the grindstone
And noses to meet
It's time for the little boy
To stand on two feet

It's time for the age
Of a man to compete
It's time for advances
There is no retreat

"But laughter, I say
Knows no seasons of joy
What's good for the man
Is what's good for the boy"

"What good is a life
Without Bozo's big feet?
And Krusty the Clown's
Slightly foul-mouthed routine?"

But they tell me, you see
There no room for my kind
They're not laughing last laughs
They're all left behind

"Oh, I see what you're doin'
It's all a big ruse
You're talkin' all nonsense
Wearing big floppy shoes"

"I know you too well
I've seen all your bits
I know when you're foolin'
Now stop it, just quit"

"Without this big smile
You see on my face
I'm not sure I'd want
To be any place"

"So tell me right now
Let's end this routine
Show me that smile
That you've always shown me"

----

And that's what did it
I remember the day
I thought of her smile
Thought of it fading away

I was only half serious
The usual for me
But not sure which half
Had the hold over me

And even in jest
I now know the why's
Both laughing and crying
Brings tears to one's eyes

And so I forgot
Those stuffier plans
And the laughter I heard
Was the laughter of Pan
 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In deleting a post from this thread this morning, I lingered awhile, reading from JB's opening post. It's quite long, but is a wonderful spiritual autobiography, describing his journey through a Dark Night. Not heavy or philosophical -- easy to relate to:

I especially liked:

quote:
all i did was to wake up and see
as if seeing the very first time
my learned habits and fears and lunacy
and the havoc they wreaked in my mind

who told you that God would not love you
unless you conformed to His laws?
who told you that you must act this way or that
in order to win His applause?

well i'm telling you now they were lying
but it's just that they just didn't know
they were only repeating the things that were taught
from ages and ages ago
 
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