There's been lots written by Christian practitioners of Zen during the past few decades. E.g.
- Thomas Merton's Zen and the Birds of Appetite
- William Johnston's Christian Zen
- Dom Aelred Graham's Zen Catholicism
- Jim Arraj's God, Zen and the Intuition of Being

You can read Arraj's reflections on Zen and Christianity on his website. See this page for a good listing of links.

The general consensus seems to be that Zen practice can be an aid to detachment, and it helps to awaken the human spirit in a "place" prior to acts of cognition. Where one goes from there is another matter; for many, this is enough. But for those who have Christian faith, there is still the recognition of an-Other with whom we can be in relationship. Zen can thus help to facilitate a very deep and authentic surrender of self to God if one maintains the priority of faith.

A Zen Master teaches Benedictine Brothers

About 25 years ago I visited a monastery in France (Benedictine, I believe) that had a cooperation with a Japaneze Zen monastery. When the Zen Master visited, he would guide them in various Zen meditation practices, also drawing inspiration and using examples from the monks� Christian beliefs and practices.

I am sure these Catholic brothers would not have pursued this if they sensed any danger whatsoever to their spiritual well-being.

Dear Gregory,

----------------------------------------------
I think, as with many paths in the spiritual, we need to read these sorts of books with care and caution.
I do not believe in the exclusivist idea that only Christianity is absolutely true, and all other religions are the creation of Satan.
-------------------------------------

We cannot debate the meaning of somebody else�s mystical experiences or revelations. We can read, listen, be open to God�s voice and our own revelations, and so forth, to decide what is absolutely true.

I have chosen to take seriously the testimonies of people who�ve left the Eastern path after devoting much of their time there. I see a distinct pattern in those people who have independently arrived at similar conclusions about how and why they left Eastern paths after having a direct mystical encounter with Christ. There are striking similarities in this group that are not found in folks who leave the Christian path for something else, as I wrote above.

------------------------------------------
While I do believe the fullness of salvation is to be found by the path of Christ, a close study of other world religions shows most have profound depth and spiritual insight.
----------------------------------------------

Hmm�what do you mean here, Gregory? If you believe that the FULLNESS OF SALVATION IS TO BE FOUND BY THE PATH OF CHRIST, doesn�t that imply that there is a lacking in other paths? Even if they�re profound and offer spiritual insight? Seems to me, you can�t have it both ways.

-----------------------------------------------

However, the danger and mistake many Westerners make is we turn religion into an idol for pleasing the self. Many people profoundly misunderstand Eastern religious teachings like 'detachment' and 'egolessness' and quite often Eastern religious ideas which in their original context, having very profound meaning as a part of an integrated spiritual path, become little more than worthless mantras and excuses for all kinds of spiritual decadence. It would be as if someone took the Holy Trinity for example, and reduced it to tarot cards and crystal gazing.

--------------------------------------

I believe I�ve experienced the fullness of what the Eastern path has to offer, but I LEFT that path because Christ showed me something greater. I am basically a hedonist. I found the greatest pleasure. Swimming in non-dual ecstasy is great, but Christ is beyond enlightenment.

You bring up mantas. An important point is that mantras can be dangerous, and imo evil. This is where dark forces do come into some sects of the Easter path, imo. It is no secret that those teachers & gurus who give mantras say they are a living force, an actual entity that when called upon will *live inside of you.* There was a thread on evaluating TM in which Phil quoted the TM guru�s purpose of the mantra, which was to *become one with the deity of the mantra.* Hello!? This is a bad idea! (I wrote about my discovery of the danger of mantras in my paper From Seeker to Saved, on this thread).

If you think deities and supernatural forces behind mantras are not real or if you think all of them are HOLY because they are names of gods/goddesses and are part of long-established spiritual paths, you are completely niave.

With all due respect, Gregory, I don�t think you are aware of the dark forces in Eastern practices that call on deities and energies to accomplish spiritual growth. All things spiritual, other-worldly, regardless of how profound, are not necessarily HOLY, even if they lead to enlightenment, stilling the mind, etc. This is what I found to be true and so do the other authors I listed.

There is danger of romanticizing the Eastern path because parts of it are esoteric, deep, beautiful, espousing love and unity, etc. You can have extremely wise, brilliant, enlightened teachers who awaken your kundalini and all, and still be deceived by the teachings and the energies.

I believe this scripture in John 4 speaks to the crux of this issue.

You Samaritans do not know what you are worshipping [you worship what you do not comprehend].We do know what we are worshipping [we worship what we have knowledge of and understand], for after all salvation comes from among the Jews.

A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true genuine worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers. God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality). (John 4:22-24 AMP)

Jesus is directing our attention to an important lesson for seekers of God on any path. You see, one can be enthusiastic and earnest about one�s worship of God but still lack essential knowledge and truth about who His is.

The Samaritan woman responds, �I know that Messiah is coming, He Who is called the Christ (the Anointed One); and when He arrives, He will tell us everything we need to know and make it clear to us.� She is saying, �I appreciate what you are saying that we are ignorant of how to worship God in truth, but we�ve been told to expect the Messiah to reveal what this truth is of how to worship our Lord.�

And then Jesus responds by telling her, �I Who now speak with you am He.� That is, Jesus is telling us that He is the Messiah, and it is through worshipping Him that you will know how to worship God, the Father, in truth and not just in spirit.

See, the New Age philosophy and the crux of Eastern mysticism is that the divine is within us and we can seek and find righteousness on our own (often with the help of a guru/teacher), but divinity is �within.� In my opinion, this is a deception. They assert that we can achieve this unity with God through our own efforts, meditation, kundalini ascension, positive thinking, channeling of spirits guides, etc. These paths are all grounded in the illusion that we can, on our own, find God. We can achieve enlightenment and this is certainly a fascinating mystery that humans are equipped with this capacity! But Jesus did not preach enlightenment; he preached and prayed for our union with the Father and Himself as the only path to God, the Father.

much peace to you and your family,

Shasha

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:
[qb] Dear Gregory,

You bring up mantas. An important point is that mantras can be dangerous, and imo evil. This is where dark forces do come into some sects of the Easter path, imo. It is no secret that those teachers & gurus who give mantras say they are a living force, an actual entity that when called upon will *live inside of you.* There was a thread on evaluating TM in which Phil quoted the TM guru�s purpose of the mantra, which was to *become one with the deity of the mantra.* Hello!? This is a bad idea! (I wrote about my discovery of the danger of mantras in my paper From Seeker to Saved, on this thread).

If you think deities and supernatural forces behind mantras are not real or if you think all of them are HOLY because they are names of gods/goddesses and are part of long-established spiritual paths, you are completely niave.

[/qb]

Isn't using the name of Jesus as a mantra calling
upon forces, an entity of Jesus to live within oneself? This seems to be the crux of my confusion about a personal relationship with Jesus. And i see now that this is the reason i came to the list. It is not like i can talk about Kundalini issues and these types of issues with the neighborhood minister. Tried it and it didn't work.

I used a mantra of Jesus with passion and
did end up with the only words i have are, an entity of Jesus outside myself at first, when i still believed Jesus was outside myself. And later within as my practice went more interior.

I was saying a morning prayer one day, and from within myself, felt like around my heart, i heard a male voice saying the prayer with me. This was not the type of thing i could bring up in spiritual direction so i went to the eastern religions to try and understand. I was told about tulpas. So i scratch my head in confusion.

Ajoy

Oh, i forgot to say that i had no conscious
control over the male voice that was coming from within me saying this prayer with me. I did feel
it was Jesus though.

Ajoy

OK, i finally understand where my confusion with this issue is coming from.

Ajoy

Dear Ajoy,

-----------------------------------------
Isn't using the name of Jesus as a mantra calling
upon forces, an entity of Jesus to live within oneself?

------------------------------------------

Mantra repetition amounts to explicitly inviting the energies or entities to which those mantras refer to influence you in some way, visit, or control you.

You are right, calling on Jesus or the Holy Spirit does the same thing. Jesus replaced himself with the Holy Spirit. This Spirit sustains the Body of Christ and works on transforming all those who are baptized into greater and greater likenesses of Christ Himself.

However, unlike mantras referring to Eastern gods/goddesses, the Holy Spirit is HOLY and all other energies and deities are not, imo. While other gods/ goddesses do deliver supernatural powers, expanded states of consciousness, and other signs and wonders, they do not bring about a divine transformation. (There is a qualitative, mystical difference, not a simple supernatural vs. physical dichotomy as spiritual experience can feel holy.)

I base this on my involvment with mantras, gods/goddesses of the Eastern path and also on what the other authors I've listed above have reported following their extensive experience.

----------------------------------------------
This seems to be the crux of my confusion about a personal relationship with Jesus. And i see now that this is the reason i came to the list.
----------------------------------------------

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but perhaps you've cleared up the question for yourself by now. Sorry about the long delay in responding.

much peace to you,

shasha

Dear Rachel,

I like Phil's response about understanding the synthesis between zen and Christianity.

In fact, I'm learning that zen meditation is being used to help those diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder to cope with overwhelming affect. It seems to help people who have few internal resources for self-soothing and are prone to acting out.

Hi Shasha and Phil:

Ah, yes, thanks for the feedback. I have not experienced what you experienced within Eastern Religions. However there has been a great deal of confusion having a Christian mentor with and Eastern religious background. I realize this may sound very strange but what you are raising has been helpful for me when it comes to Christian Churches. It sounds like you met someone from another religion that caused harm. Sent you down the wrong path. My experience was within Christianity. And so for me now this seems part of the human condition and occurs in all religions.

I received a little pamphlet today on Centering Prayer. I hadn't read their literature
in some time and it was very interesting to read and may offer
something to this discussion. Father Keating is saying
something rather interesting. Paraphrased: Contemplative Prayer
a pure gift of God "It is the opening of mind, and heart - our whole
being - to God, the Ultimate Mystery, beyond thoughts, words, and
emotions". Paraphrased: It is also a relationship with G*d. "It is a
movement beyond conversation with Christ to communion with Him".

This suggests to me a relationship with YHWH beyond the dualistic/non-dual experience. Because there is still someone experiencing the experience in non-dual and dualism.

Sometimes in prayer i lose time. When awareness returns it is often very loving but can also be non dual. I've felt this is the love of YHWH.

Phil, i know someone who would lose time during Contemplative Prayer and return gasping for air. Is this anything you have an understanding of?
Or have your experienced these types of experiences within your journey?


Thanks
Ajoy

Yes, Ajoy, I think I know what people are talking about when they refer to non-dual experiences. I have known times of deep unity and un-self-consciousness and am grateful for these glimpses of what is to come. Yet it does seem that we are also destined to live in duality -- metaphysical duality, that is -- and that's not a bad thing, either.

Thank you Phil:

I am finally getting a picture of what is considered dual and non-dual. I am inclined to agree with you,
at this point, that we live in both duality and non-duality.

I have also seen this
with Eastern Enlightenment. They have the ability to enter the non-dual state at will, as you do. It is simply too difficult to live life in that state all the time in this modern world.

Ajoy

Dear Ajoy,

you wrote:
----------------------------
...that we live in both duality and non-duality.

I have also seen this
with Eastern Enlightenment. They have the ability to enter the non-dual state at will, as you do. It is simply too difficult to live life in that state all the time in this modern world.
-----------------------------

Yes, we have the ability...and with that *free will*. We have the free will choice to operate in various states of consciousness. Some of us must, at times, consider surrender to God's Will instead of our own, not because it's difficult to live in non-duality in a modern world, but for the sake of being obedience in following Christ.

Shasha, what is your understanding of the fact that eastern religions have had the spiritual insight and sensitivity to encounter, understand, document and guide people along the path of kundalini awakening? Neither Judaism, Islam or Christianity can say the same. What does this mean for the religious/philosophical systems in which this took place. I agree, that Jesus Christ in God and that there is no other and that Eastern religions can be terrible "traps" that ensnare those who do not know better. But what about the aspects of those religions that seem to be on the button, so to speak, with spiritual, philosophical, metaphysical and psychological insights that are completely congruent with Christianity?

Might this, perchance, tell us something about the nature of Truth?

Jacques,

----------------------------------------------
Shasha, what is your understanding of the fact that eastern religions have had the spiritual insight and sensitivity to encounter, understand, document and guide people along the path of kundalini awakening?
----------------------------------------------

Kundalini ascension alone/ non-dual awareness does not a holy person make. What's worse, it doesn't make all of one's problems go away! In many cases, it appears to greatly compound one's problems (e.g., functioning in the world, temptations for super-powers/ siddhis, the ethics of manipulating other's energy, etc.).

------------------------------
...What does this mean for the religious/philosophical systems in which this took place.
------------------------------------

I don't know. This is a mysterious thing to me too.

---------------------------------------
But what about the aspects of those religions that seem to be on the button, so to speak, with spiritual, philosophical, metaphysical and psychological insights that are completely congruent with Christianity?
------------------------------------------

It's not the congruent aspects underlying most world religions that is under consideration, imo, it's the ones which are *incongruent* with Christ.

Hello Phil, Shasha, and group:

Is there an Eastern term, other than Enlightenment when energy comes back down into a union within the heart after reaching the crown. It does not seem to be the same as Kundalini energy. Anyway, this is what i have been referring to as Enlightenment and non-dual.
Sorry for my use of Eastern terms so incorrectly.

I have seen what you are talking about Shasha. Now i can relate to what you are saying. If that
is considered Enlightenment than i agree with what you have been saying. Although there does seem to be another step for at least some in Eastern Religions of living from the heart.

Thanks
Ajoy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shasha:


"Kundalini ascension alone/ non-dual awareness does not a holy person make. What's worse, it doesn't make all of one's problems go away! In many cases, it appears to greatly compound one's problems (e.g., functioning in the world, temptations for super-powers/ siddhis, the ethics of manipulating other's energy, etc.). "

Just to remind you, dear group, that we have another whole forum devoted to kundalini issues, wherein we've already done a lot of reflecting on its similarities and differences with the Christian understanding of the Holy Spirit.

For sure, all religions are working with the same human nature and its various energy systems. The reason there are different religions has more to do with different approaches to the divine. This is why they don't all end up being mere cultural variants of the same thing, as many would have it.

----

Ajoy, what you describe in terms of energy is difficult to assess, as you haven't said much about how your experience has influenced your sense of God, how you understand Christ to be present, etc. Christian mystics experience non-dual states similar to what Easterners describe, but never consider it to be revelatory of some innate divinity. Being "lost in God" so that "the soul doesn't know if it is God or God is the soul (St. John of the Cross)" is not uncommon among Christian contemplatives. Maybe a Buddhist would call this and enlightenment experience, but there is a sense of relationalality described by Christians (also Jews and Muslims) that is missing in certain Eastern approaches.

What you describe sounds very good, however. Do you have a spiritual director to help you understand and integrate the experience?

Dear Phil,

There are bhaki(love)yogas / traditions that worship the divine in relational ways and have no problem moving between enlightenment, in which they become completely one with the Goddess, for instance, AND recognize her as GOD and experience themselves as one with God through enlightenment.

These folks will argue that their mystical union with God (non-dual awareness) AND their love relationship with the divine co-exist, and will argue that Christ is just another name for kundalini shaki or Krishna or the Feminie Divine.

I don't deny that they are *in relationship* with a supernatural energy...in fact, I experienced this merger myself when I was initiated into a powerful Kali worship tradition. Here they equate kundalini exactly with the Goddess Kali and this is GOD and you too can become one with God/Goddess if you invite her to live inside you. They emphasize that kundalini is the same as the Holy Spirit, Chi, etc. and deny the unique mission of Christ.

This part of the discussion seems appropriate on this thread because my point is that worshiping gods/goddesses, even as the energy of kundalini, is a false god.

Why? because Christ and the Holy Spirit is not kundalini or the dieties associated with kundalini energy. Nor is Christ the goddess Kali; nor is He Shiva or Shakti...His name is not Krishna...it's more than the names of God that are different--it's the source to which the names refer.

Sorry if I'm being redundant here...I know I've said this dozens of times...

I hear you, Shasha. The "structure" of the experience is the same, but the relational partner different. I wasn't meaning to say that only the "western" religions describe a relational union; only providing general feedback to Ajoy in response to her inquiry. Overall, I'm in complete agreement with the distinctions you're making.

So...forgive my confusion, but where does that leave the interfaith dialogue. Is the seemingly rare (by the way you guys seem to be suggesting) case of implicit faith the only time there is any good in non-christian religion...and hence not the religion itself but simply implict faith. I don't really have a major problem with that, but i just thought that perhaps the picture was bigger than that. But now it seems that Christ is never being unknowingly refered to in non-Christian religion, where before i thought maybe they were referring to Christ and not knowing it. Like the Samaritin woman by the well, Jesus doesn't really tell her that she is worshiping a false god (even though she was as far from the doctrinal truth as say a modern day mormon or jehovah's witness. Instead he simply tells her that she worships what she doesn't know. I took that to mean she was worshiping the true God, but was simply mistaken about some things. It just seems to me that following the model of Christ vs. the false gods that she was worshiping a false god if she was not worshiping God in the Jewish fashion. But then why does Jesus not directly confront that fact and tell her not that she worship what she does not know, but that she worships a demon or satan?

Good points, Jacques. As you know from previous discussions, I'm an "inclusivist" rather than exclusivist or pluralist when it comes to the issue of Christ's presence in other religions. My post above was intended to express agreement with Shasha's distinctions re. kundalini/Holy Spirit, goddess/Christ, etc.

That said, I do believe God is present and acting in other world religions, and doing so in and through the Person of Christ. He is the reality they seek, and no one can really judge the extent to which others actually encounter him, even if they are using the wrong names, rituals, etc. He alone knows the human heart and whether its intent is for what he has to give, or for some other counterfeit. My theology does not see him legalistically writing someone off because they use the wrong name for God.

One way we can tell for sure if others are encountering Christ/Spirit is by looking for the fruits of the Spirit in their lives (Gal. 5: 22-23). Truth be told, we do see "love, joy, peace, patience, etc." manifest in other religions, and very sincerely and authentically so. Therefore, the Spirit must be at work there through the dynamic we've referred to in other discussions as "implicit faith." As we've been over all this several times through the years, I'll encourage anyone who wants to read up more on it to to a search on the forum for "implicit faith"

Dear Jacques, A few posts up on this thread, I bring up the scripture referring to the Samaritan woman...

I totally agree with Phil on the point that nobody can "really judge the extent to which others actually encouter him [Christ], even if they are using the wrong names, rituals, etc...my theology does not see him legalistically writing someone off because they use the wrong name for God."

Most of us would simply not RESPECT a God who did not honor the impulse to love one another and worship their Maker--in whatever form. It just wouldn't add up, imo. This is why I adamently resisted the notion of their being just one true God who was expressed equally in all good religions.

However, the issue is more complicated than that as there is also an explicit truth out there. Hence, my reference to the scripture re: the Samaritan woman.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
As you know from previous discussions, I'm an "inclusivist" rather than exclusivist or pluralist when it comes to the issue of Christ's presence in other religions...

...I do believe God is present and acting in other world religions, and doing so in and through the Person of Christ... He alone knows the human heart and whether its intent is for what he has to give...

One way we can tell for sure if others are encountering Christ/Spirit is by looking for the fruits of the Spirit in their lives...

Those are very deep points in a fascinating discussion. I wholeheartedly agree! And in this respect the Church (i.e. Spiritual Body of Christ) comprises more that what is given us to see.

Your point also addresses the whole Relativism school of thought that characterises much of the New Age movement. To my extreme distaste!

Truly, it is by the Yes or No of our hearts that we define membership in this Church -- a Church that supersedes (transcends) all institutional churches as we know them.

I agree, HP. One can affirm the reality of the mystical body of Christ extending beyond explicit manifestations of Church just as one can affirm the reality of a hidden, implicit faith in Christ at work in the other world religions (and non-religious people as well).

That said, there is "explicit truth," as Shasha noted, and it is far better to have explicit faith than implicit faith, for one can then consciously and willingly give oneself over to Christ and the formation of the Spirit. Same goes for the Church; it is far more conducive to one's growth in Christ to be a member of a Christian community than to settle for "implicit Church" membership. That all needs to be affirmed whenever discussion of inclusivism and baptism of desire (implicit faith) is discussed. Otherwise, it makes little sense to acknowledge the visible manifestation of God as incarnate in Jesus; God might as well have done everything in a hidden kind of way.

Hello Phil:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]

For sure, all religions are working with the same human nature and its various energy systems. The reason there are different religions has more to do with different approaches to the divine. This is why they don't all end up being mere cultural variants of the same thing, as many would have it.

----
Yes, this is my understanding. Having met people from other religions that are living from the Fruits of the Spirit, to use Christian termonlogy.

++++++

Ajoy, what you describe in terms of energy is difficult to assess, as you haven't said much about how your experience has influenced your sense of God, how you understand Christ to be present, etc. Christian mystics experience non-dual states similar to what Easterners describe, but never consider it to be revelatory of some innate divinity. Being "lost in God" so that "the soul doesn't know if it is God or God is the soul (St. John of the Cross)" is not uncommon among Christian contemplatives. Maybe a Buddhist would call this and enlightenment experience, but there is a sense of relationalality described by Christians (also Jews and Muslims) that is missing in certain Eastern approaches.

What you describe sounds very good, however. Do you have a spiritual director to help you understand and integrate the experience? [/qb]

++++++
Phil, no i am not working with a spiritual
director presently. I have given some consideration to expressing more about my relationship with YHWH, but it doesn't feel
right to share this depth of intimacy on open forum. However, upon reflection of your question
has brought a deeper understanding for me. So thank you.

Ajoy