Dear friends, I always pray for the saints at Shalom Place. Peace and love to you in the name of our Lord Jesus.

I prayed earnestly yesterday that the Lord reveal to us the truth about this matter of energy transference, Collie's writings, etc. I prayed, "Father, please show me the truth...am I being paranoid? What will you have us learn from this exchange?"

Yesterday, I was poking around Collie's website and was reminded of my Siddha Yoga involvment years ago. On one of those pages, Collie refers to herself as a 'snake person' and says there are two kinds of people, snake people and the rest. Snake people are those who enjoy kundalini transformations and the divinity that it brings, she seemed to be saying. I remembered one day while I was chanting passionately some mantra and it began to chant through me automatically--a tidalwave of bliss praising the kundalini goddess, Kali (pronounced like Collie!) Creator of the Universe, wish-fullfilling tree, Dancing Flame, all of that. Suddenly, in this virtually empty parking lot, across which I was walking, appeared a large black snake, and he was hissing loudly at me! Then a few years ago when I got back into kundalini goddess worship, in meditation I was visisted by a snake and bitten on the forefinger. This is supposed to be auspicious! as Collie, kundalini lovers, and even some Hindu scripture purport...and I really believed this nonsense.

Anyway, last night about 4 am, I had a dream of this very helpful, generous-seeming woman. I saw that the closer one got to her the more they could detect something very wrong. Then she tried to kiss me on the face, and at that instant, I was awakened by an evil presence in my room. In a flash, I saw a picture of Collie and the words from her website describing her as very generous and helpful. I thought, OK don't panic, just pray...the "snake people" stuff came back to me and I decided to put myself in a grateful mood. I thanked the Father for His protection and asked to be open to what He might be trying to teach me. Afterall, I had prayed for the truth about this issue. Despite this presence in my room, I remained in a fairly relaxed state for a while, nothing happened, so I thought I'd just try to go to sleep.

Before I fell asleep, I was wisked away to some 'place' where there was this awful hissing sound. It was so loud that I could barely stand it. Then I saw there was this snake and then emerged a bunch of hideous amphibian-like creatures, larger than normal. The hissing filled this place, and I instinctivly began to pray in tongues. I don't know what I was saying but it was causing the creatures to shrink until they finally disappeared.

I was returned my 'body' and I thought, that's it! I'm done. Thank you, Father. I prayed to the Holy Mother, too. Then I experienced another encounter with some demonic force, but it was completely gone by this morning. Though I know it happened, it was wiped out of my awareness completely.

So, I've said my piece and I've made my peace. Thanks for indulging me in your listening.

p.s. Jacques, I don't really think there are neutral energies. Either one is being pulled up to Christ or down by forces aligned with the anti-Christ. And I agree with Stephen that all the drama in and around us is for the sake of purification, which I think is the same as sanctification...somebody, correct me if I'm wrong.

From Jacques: Phil, you certainly seem to think the world is not a as dangerous as shasha and stephen seem to think, interestingly I share some of the same history and agree with them. Again, this does not answer the question, simply adds weight to the fact that your past influences your current experience.

Jacques, I do believe in the reality of evil, evil spirit, etc., and that some philosophies, teachings, practices, etc. open one to their influence. Having met with people for spiritual direction for over 20 years, I'm much aware of the malevolent influences of evil spirit.

That said, I am admittedly more inclined to see many of the manifestations people call demonic to be disenfranchised aspects of their own psyche that are laden with unintegrated energies. It's possible that demons might be working in and through these . . . hard to say for sure. Trying to exorcise symbols carrying archetypal and/or repressed energies is a rather futile exercise, and the persistence of these "demons" in the face of holy water, Holy Communion, etc. belies their demonic character, imo. These manifestations can and do appear to be autonomous -- even "external" to the Ego, having a life of their own. I'm not trying to overly "psychologize" this issue, but one must consider these realities when attempting to discern whether evil spirits are wreaking havok. That consideration goes for Elder Jospeh and Mother Theresa, whom Stephen mentioned above.

So much of Hinduism and New Age teaching seems smitten with indulgence of archetypal dynamics, imo. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as integrating the archetypes is part of the journey to wholeness. Whether or not other dynamics come into play is a matter of discernment, which entails consideration of much more than whether one feels spooked or not. E.g., you state above:

quote:

The day of my conversion I was keenly aware of the energy and pull of occult and new age objects in a Christian woman's daughter's room. The daughter had dream catchers and some other objects and I could sense their energy so much that I asked to please move to another room.

When you say you sensed these energies, you sound like you made some kind of objective observation -- like noticing there were red lights emanating, or the objects were hot or cold. What you're not considering is how much your own projections contributed to what you sensed. Being spooked by objects from other religious or spiritual traditions doesn't mean evil spirits are lurking; that's very shallow discernment, at best. One would need to examine these kinds of feelings more deeply to see what's really going on, here. See what I mean?

- - -

Tough night, shasha! I hope you sleep better tonight. Sounds like it was a transformative experience.

El Collie seems to have forged her own interperetation through much reading, as this seemed the best path to her. Many of the cutting edge, and
IMO, very formidible researchers and thinkers which she found helpful are listed here:

http://www.intuition.org/idxtran.htm

Oh, the Joy, I love Thinking Allowed!

Still, I'm so great-full to have an established belief system to fall back on. El Collie's less grounded path would frighten me out of my wits.
She did simply ask the bad spirits to leave in her own way. "Are you a good witch or a bad witch, Dorothy?"

Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences, esp. the Baptism!

pax, mm

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Maybe that all helps to clarify. Whatever the case, it's difficult for me to understand how someone simply writing about experiences that "might" pertain to astral beings could endanger one's spiritual life. Do you and others really believe these entities move through those words into another's consciousness and take up residence there against one's will and despite the presence of God within a soul? This seems to me to be giving them quite a bit of power and influence. The way I understand these matters is that a certain level of permission must be given either explicitly or implicitly for "demons" to take hold of one's energy. I don't see how reading about another's experience implies any such permission.

I find benefit from a wide range of resources without necessarily buying lock, stock and barrel of those who've developed them. E.g., Richard Dawkins, an atheist, came up with the idea of memes -- a very good idea. It doesn't follow that my valuing this idea means I am endangering my soul because of Dawkins' atheism. See what I mean? Same sort of thing goes for El Collie and a lot of other writers. If one finds it too dangerous to read what they've written, then one should avoid them. But to pronounce them evil and off-limits out of hand seems a bit extreme to me. [/qb]

Hi Phil,

I've been reading some of the posts in this thread. I agree with some, and not others. I do like and agree with your quote above. I'm glad you're here to keep us on the straight and narrow.

:-)
Katy

Hey Phil,

Your last post was very helpful.

Just to clarify on the experience I described. I was lying in this girls room, suffering severe demonic attack, when I began to feel a pressure in my head. My eyes were closed at the time, and as I moved my head around, with my eyes closed, I sensed the pressure was coming from a specific place in the room (It felt a bit like when you hold two north poles of a magnet together). As I opened my eyes in line with where I felt the source, I was staring straight at a dream catcher. It felt like this was the origin of the pressure.

I understand though that this is my interpretation of an experience that is difficult to analyse.

Glad to hear you found it helpful, Jacques, and I can understand how/why you focused on the dream-catcher. Fwiw, you might read up on what dreamcathers are and how they are used in Native American cultures. They use them to protect against evil influences.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]
It's all very well to say we can take what we like from these people and leave the rest, but for those of us who are open to such things there is a real danger of transference. For example, most new age types, whether writers, aromatherapist, whatever, will pray or chant over their work, which connects it (oils, books etc) to their spirit guide. If someone like myself gives themselves over to that work, the transference of that spirit being is quite possible. Not to the degree of possession but leaving one rather exposed and open to attack. It's up to you whether you believe this possible or not. I've been to websites and read books by new agers, psychics etc and found myself horrifically attacked later that night. Transference. Even if an individual isn't as opened out as myself, I see a real danger of contamination from this stuff.
[/qb]

Stephen:

I wrote my Young Living Essential Oils (aromatherapist) upline person about this. I asked her if she knew anyone who does this. Here is her reply:

"It is done unto you as you believe" Jesus said
If one is in fear of possession, then it certainly will happen.
Note: The referral to "new agers" as if a dirty word.
Not my reality at all. I am always protected by the "Light of the Christ".

What exactly do you want me to say here, Katy?

The arrogance and presumption of your friend's reply is not worth comment.

You yourself sound a bit annoyed by all this. Have I upset your applecart?

I don't offer my opinion but my experience. Take or leave it as you will.

Stephen,

It was just for yours and others information. I didn't necessarily want you to say anything, really. It was just my two cents worth.

Katy

BTW - I really don't appreciate my words being taken out of the context of these boards (if that is what you've done, Katy). If anyone wants to comment on what I say, let them come here. I doubt if anything can be done to prevent this(unless I start copyrighting everything that comes out of my mouth) but I find it a breach of trust.

Stephen,

I did take your words out of context; I am sorry. At the time I thought it was enough in context. I did not intend to do any harm or cause a problem. It just looked like you were saying that most armatherapists were calling on "spirit guides", etc." (which I don't believe in either), when I know this is not true. I am sorry you had a bad experince with aromatherpapy and I am not discounting that.

Katy

Katy,

I've had more than one bad experience with aromatherapy and I know that a lot of new age therapists do call on higher powers, be it white light or even "the Christ" (which they imagine as some sort of force rather than Jesus Christ the Son of God and second Person in the Trinity, implicit in your friend's statement BTW) when preparing their oil. They may not be spirit guides as such but such vague notions of spiritual power are far removed from the power of the living, personal God revealed in Christ Jesus and leave things open to all sorts of influence from spiritual realms.

Incidently, my reference to "new agers" was probably more playful than derogatory and I don't appreciate having myself opened up to this kind of insecure judgementalism. Otherwise, apology accepted.

Stephen,

I believe you; I just haven't come across any. Maybe I should be more careful.

Katy

Phil,

Now I am wondering about Hildegard. She "believes in" all kinds of natural remedies, even gem stones, she says have some of Gods healing "power" in them. I didn't word that exactly right, but I think you know what I mean?
Thanks,

Katy

Katy,

A lot probably depends on who's administering the healing. Nothing wrong with massage in itself, and I dare say a lot of crystals will be harmless. It all boils down to what is influencing/motivating the particular "healer", and I know that a lot of new age energies aren't particularly clean.

I Agree :-)

Katy

Katy, how will I ever remember to breathe w/o you?

Here is the apex of El Collie's striving:

http://www.elcollie.com/html/Issue21.html

When I do not post in here for a couple of days, I have to log in again. Love is like that, if I don't "log in" and "breathe," I forget that "I'm soaking in it."

madge.com

Hi Stephen:


I have found this to be true also.
Christians are not exempt from this.
Everything depends on where the "healer/teacher" is in their
own process. Any unconscious stuff can be
passed on in what ever healing modality the
individual uses, including prayer. As my mentor
would say, be careful who you ask to pray for you.

It has always seemed to me that anyone who
unknowingly uses "self will" over
thy will when working with others can cause
the other harm.

Just from my experience.

Ajoy


Katy,

A lot probably depends on who's administering the healing. Nothing wrong with massage in itself, and I dare say a lot of crystals will be harmless. It all boils down to what is influencing/motivating the particular "healer", and I know that a lot of new age energies aren't particularly clean.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalmichael9:
[qb] Katy, how will I ever remember to breathe w/o you?

Here is the apex of El Collie's striving:

http://www.elcollie.com/html/Issue21.html

When I do not post in here for a couple of days, I have to log in again. Love is like that, if I don't "log in" and "breathe," I forget that "I'm soaking in it."

madge.com [/qb]

Ahhhh, MM, you are something else. That made me smile, and I was not feeling well today. So Thanks!

Katy

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalmichael9:
[qb] Katy, how will I ever remember to breathe w/o you?

Here is the apex of El Collie's striving:

http://www.elcollie.com/html/Issue21.html

When I do not post in here for a couple of days, I have to log in again. Love is like that, if I don't "log in" and "breathe," I forget that "I'm soaking in it."

madge.com [/qb]

MM

Thanks also for the link. I went there..read it and like it a lot and agree, but I'm not sure what that has to do with breathing. :-)

Truth be told, like the Amish say, I believe that after all is said and done, love is the main thing to be concerned about. I used to have a book called "Make Love Your Aim". Personally I get confused with so much reading and discussion about kundalini, archtypes, and the like. Too much for my little brain. I am "naturally" an anxous, fearful person (yes, been working on that for many years) so I feel better sticking to the basics.. and reading "positive" things.

Thanks, MM. I think we may be on the same wave length. Any more good links for me? lol Well, actually I need to "fast" from information overload for now.

Katy

Katy,

My dear mother is a wondeful trusting Christian, yet her latest message was all about being ungrateful and praying for forgiveness over this. She worries too, which is a form of fear, and I tend to take after her quite a bit. Still, her worrying kept me alive more than once...

I recommended that she journal and talk it over with someone, pray and let it go. She has a wonderful life, and her thoughts are mostly positive. She is probably a pretty typical example of a "good" Christian who follows directions.

I work hard at all of this, since I am one of God's Special Kids. Where do I hook up with the Christian Special Olympics?

caritas, mm

Personally I think any type of image-based meditation needs to be done with caution. The Desert Fathers have a lot of experience with this, with various images appearing to them in various guises. Generally many of these images were associated with demons, while some were of Christ and showed spiritual progress.

Evagrius of Pontus developed a fairly elaborate analysis of images. For me, despite Evagrius's Christological errors, his analysis of images and their psychological sources (which we today would recognise as coming from the unconcious) gives a very useful insight into which are from demons and which lead to the spiritual path. Essentially the Trinity is formless and cannot be contained in any image, so when we see images and associated feelings we need to apply a careful discernment of spirits to images that appear in our head. Contemplatives such as St John of the Cross offer in my view, a fairly reasonable view over what sorts of 'images' are likely to be from demons, and which are from God.

While some Christian mystics have been very strongly image-driven (i.e. Metchild of Magedurg, Hildegard of Bingen) mystics also had a strong process of discernment from their own faith tradition into false and true images. The danger with some New Age practices is if they are done without discernment, people fall into the pereniall traps of spiritual deception, egotism and pride.

Saint Bernard would take away icons and statues and even the crucifixes of his monks. Perhaps he was overzealous in this, as they may have been in the place where they still needed them.

I do see your point though, Gregory, and welcome!

------------------------------------------------------
El Collie links to Bob Boyd's kundalini support blog:

http://kundalini-support.com/forums/read.php?2,15

Word is getting out to the world about Phil & kundalini.

Gregory:

Are you familiar with the tradition of Lectio Divina and its treatment of images?