[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
John, the response above is different from the one I got via email notification. It sounds like some of my posts might have been received as some kind of criticism, which was not the intent.
Yes I was editing it while still on line on the forum, as I went along. I wasn't aware that you were receiving the "rough draft"!
Yes, I receive email notifications of the first draft of a post.
My responses aren't always given to one particular post, but to how that post fits in with the broader concerns that have been expressed by the one posting.
Sometimes, too, I tend to use a post as a springboard to relevant teaching that I hope can be helpful somehow.
Thanks for your observations about the soul.
Does the literature contain instances of Christian contemplatives witnessing the soul in meditation? Could the soul have the aspect of "observer" do you think, instead of the physiologic self perception which is nuerochemical?
Secondly, because the kundalini opening in my case was post traumatic in nature, without having been doing any yoga intentionally, I too, like yourself, had no idea what the phenomenon was, that I was witnessing. I had to go to the literature to learn that it was kundalini.
And it wasn't until I looked into whatever scant sources I could find in the Christian mystical tradition, like Evelyn Underhill's classic work on mysticism and also your excellent book "Kundalini Energy and Christian Spirituality" that I first had some confirmation that Catholics can have such openings. So initially, I explored yogic techniques and kept those practices that enhanced the current flows. These included alternate nostril pranayama, yoni mudra, kechari mudra, spinal breathing, and ancient mantras. But the Lord's Prayer, that has had the most profound and powerful effect of all, and I returned full circle to Catholicism, to my upbringing. Now it's the Lord's Prayer, surrender and prayer that activates it bigly. I think Derek is correct in quoting St. John's writings on infused contemplation. What do you think about all of above?
John, the understanding of the soul articulated in Catholicism would place the "observer" or "witness" as an attribute of the spiritual soul. We might call this a spiritual self, or even a metaphysical self, in contrast with transient identity states usually associated with Egoic structures. I've tried to say something about all this in my book, God and I: Exploring the Connections Between God, Self and Ego, which you have examined, I believe. It does seem that there is nothing prior to this witness -- that it is not derived from other states, but is just "there." I think we have, here, accounted on the Christian side for an experience that is deeply valued in the East. Several books I've read on this topic make that connection.
I understand what you mean by a "post-traumatic" kundalini awakening. I think my experience, which arose in the context of an intensely stressful time in life, was much the same. Interesting how you found these yogic practices and their influence on the process -- very important for understanding what's going on, I believe. I, too, bought some books on yoga and tried it out, but found Christian prayer forms like Lectio Divina, charismatic prayer and contemplative prayer to be more helpful. It seemed to me the energy process needed a larger context/container for healthy integration, and prayer provided for this. I even went on a Zen retreat, but found it was not as helpful as prayer. Zazen just pretty much gave me a monstrous headache, as did pranayama and other practices. I use them again every now and then, but sparingly. A short step in that direction and it seems I am trying to "fix myself" by "doing something."
It surely sounds like you have a similar experience to mine in how you describe the energy flow with the Lord's Prayer. I think SJC would consider this an active form of prayer rather than contemplation, however, with the energy experience as concomitant to the prayer. For SJC, infused contemplation was somewhat passive and receptive, in deep silence, with minimal thinking. As you probably know, we call this apophatic prayer as opposed to kataphatic, which is making use of words, images, and symbols in prayer: active prayer.
- http://www.ignatianspiritualit...-or-apophatic-prayer (and a link there for deeper reading).
I think the important thing is that the practice of praying the Lord's Prayer has led you closer to God while also stimulating and helping you to integrate the energy process. That's it's also led you back to your Catholic roots is also marvelous!
Thanks for those comments. I kind of doubt that your awakening was "post-traumatic" insofar as I don't see the trauma in your case. I surmise, based on reading your books, that your kundalini awakening was based on your religious devotion in prayer and also due to your service to others in your ministry. Not that it matters. But as far as the phenomena of yours noted in your book, I am rather convinced you did not have the truly overpowering heart opening with tachycardia, arrthymias, and sense of impending death. I believe Ramana Maharshi had a post-traumatic opening because of his sense of impending death (as a teenager).
Point well-taken, John. I did not have the heart phenomena you describe.
But I do think the stressful environment I was experiencing at the time of the awakening contributed, in that my primary means of coping was through intensifying spiritual disciplines. Once I changed jobs and things settled down at home, I could back off somewhat on the spiritual disciplines and the k process became much easier to integrate.
"heart opening with tachycardia, arrthymias, and sense of impending death." Now here is something that is being talked about that I totally understand. The reason that Phil didn't have that aspect of the experience was because he was able to change the situation that was leading to that experience if left unchecked.
I spent fifteen years in the "heart opening with tachycardia, arrthymias, and sense of impending death" state of being. Because, there was no way for me to escape. I was stuck in a situation that I had no control over. And I would never wish that on anybody!
It has been interesting reading the discussions in this topic about the mystic experience. It should be noted, based on sixty-three years as a mystic, that the mystic experience does not need to have anything to do with the Kundalini. And when the Kundalini does come into play, for whatever reason, it takes the mystic experience into the sorting out of the subconscious personality programming that lies in the automated part of ones mind. Which then ultimately leads you to, if you don't decide to go do something else, to the sense of impending death. Yes the normal mystic experience takes you into "the dark night of the soul" experience, but this experience is is just your fear of the unknown. Entering into the realm of God to explore it is scary because it is new just like most radically new things and changes are scary. Yes, it may wake up the Kundalini a bit because all scary things do. And you may feel that you will die if you enter into the unknown (If you take the hand of Jesus when you step through into it then that doesn't happen). But feeling that you will die if you enter into the unknown is not the same as "a deep sense of impending death" that is caused by something that is associated with "physical threat" to your life.
I had well over twenty wonderful years as a serious mystic who was spending six to fourteen hours a day in meditation and I went through all of the different mystic experiences. And then my life situation changed in a way where my physical welfare was threatened very up close and personal. From that time on my exploration of the "Mystical Unknown" ceased. From that point in time I went into deep introspection to try to solve the intense fear that I was experiencing. Yes I did is as a mystic and yes I did it with the help of my Master Lord Jesus (which is why I survived the experience). Because of my life situation, I took a side road that lead from the exploration of the "Mystical Unknown" to the exploration of the understanding of "Perceived Self".
The Kundalini is a Primordial force/energy that rises up from the sex and body chakras during times of threat to give one energy that is beyond normal. It increases the strength and the speed of movement of your muscles and it heightens your awareness and senses to acute levels. Now in normal people, with normal stress and emotional balance, the Kundalini stays in an active sense in the sex and body chakras and stimulates the sex chrakra which energizes you through your sex chakra and adrenal system. But during time of threat this primordial energy travels up the spine and "smacks" the fight or flight region of the lower hypothalamus region of the brain and you become "LIT". And awesomely enhanced . And if you can not fight or flight, then this Kundalini primordial energy starts shutting down your nervous system and you go into a state sever shock. "Mystics do not have to play in this reality", and this reality has absolutely nothing to do with exploring the "Mystical Unknown" . And when you over come your fear of entering into the "Mystical Unknown" (the dark night of the soul stuff) the Kundalini energy in your groin area becomes quiet and at peace with things. Yes it is on a little bit, but just enough to keep your autonomic nervous system in a state of balance by gently stimulating the sympathetic side of the autonomic nervous system.
Love, Tucker.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tucker,
Profound sharing, Tucker. Thank you so much, as you speak with the authority of experience.
I have never heard kundalini described as something of a stress response before and will need to give that more thought. It certainly did begin as a compensation for an acutely stressful time in my own life, but has continued through the years despite the absence of these stressors. I do not seem to have much of a choice about it, despite my preference for a kundalini-free mysticism. Yet I do believe it can and does play an important role in keeping the body/mind stress-free and the higher chakras open to mystical graces, and that's how I understand the positive aspect. Of course, I cannot understand how that could possibly work out very well without the stabilizing influence of Christ and his Spirit in the soul. We humans are so profoundly wounded that the intensification of energy within only accentuates our imbalances and pains. Sometimes it's not so hot even with Jesus holding us together!
I love you Phil ! I do not know how one would do it without Jesus, I have no idea . Kundalini free mysticism is not actually Kundalini free . What it is is keeping the Kundalini in the groin area of the body. The Kundalini is where our energy to do things comes from. And in normal people this energy comes from the groin area with a little bit of a push from the adrenal glands. Now with people like me, who have a problem with the Fight or Flight region of the Lower Hypothalamu being "over stimulated", the Kundalini doesn't want to stay in the groin area. It wants to break loose and flow into the whole nervous system. And the "breaking loose" phenomenon starts to happen the instant that the stomach starts to gas up. And this gassing up process is started by a thought that comes up out of the subconscious (automated part) mind. And usually that thought, which is a habit thought that we picked up in our childhood, starts with, "I do not want to." This thought has to do with permission to feel power (I am in control) because you can say. "no". This little piece of programming is insidious and it is what takes people into nervous system degenerative diseases. Now as long as you have programming that says that you have to do something to override the "I do not want to" thought, you are alright. You keep moving. The thing that makes this little piece of programming insidious is that it triggers the flight response in the autonomic nervous system. And over time it gets worse and worse because we don't want to do anything. And as this happens our nervous system begins to degrade because, "if you do not use it you lose it."
The "I do not want to," thought comes up out of the subconscious mind (sometimes very quietly). The stomach begins to gas up. This gas begins to stimulate panic. This panic then causes other negative mind habit thoughts to surface from the subconscious mind which then make things radically worse. More gas more panic and "I do not want to," becomes "I can't!" This little piece of programming starts out telling you that it is your friend because if you can say "no" you are then in control and safe. But overtime this piece of programming if listened to becomes a willful child that goes into a temper tantrum over the slightest things and then starts shutting down one's nervous system. Every time one listens to it it gets worse. Until, it reaches the point where you can not control it anymore. And everything throws you into a panic attack.
Phil, I have spent years attempting to understand and control this phenomenon and I have reached the point where I understand what is causing it and I can watch it happen as it is happening. But I can't make it go away . All I can do is consciously stimulate the the life energy centers of my nervous system and fight to keep the the gas that forms in my stomach moving out of my stomach to release the panic causing pressure. Which at times is very difficult.
So now, what does this have to do with contemplative stages? All mystics that go anywhere with the mystic experience have this piece of programming at work in their subconscious mind's automated programming. If they didn't have this piece of programming they would be out doing physical things. For some reason this piece of programming creates a resistance doing physical things. People with this piece of programming are only happy when they are playing in their mind. This is with the understanding that people who have this piece of programming but don't enjoy playing in their mind just sit around and are generally considered by other to be lazy. People who enjoy playing in their minds do not consider themselves lazy because they are doing something constructive. And Mystics consider what they are doing constructive because they are exploring "God" and the foundations of all things. Which they actually are . When a mystic goes into a kind of union with the "Unknown" they download information from this "Unknown". Over time this information is processed automatically by the mind and the mystic experiences a "cognitive leap of understanding". Which is awesome to experience ! In the beginning while this information is being processed you can have the dark night of the soul experience because you are learning new things. Overtime with experience in downloading the "Unknown" this dark night of the soul stuff goes away and ceases to be a problem. Now each time you download the "Unknown" the information becomes an ever expanding sphere of information. And each expanding sphere of information is a "contemplative stage". With each contemplative stage being a bigger sphere of understanding. Eventually you reach a point where the information can not really be put into words. And eventually you are in a constant state of download and the processing understanding of the information catches up when it catches up. Because, being in the state of constant download is the reward in itself. Also, mystics eventually quit trying to explain the levels of contemplation because lets face it , anybody that has not experienced it is not going to understand what they are saying. Mystics talking to each other have no problem with understanding.
And Phil , there is no difference between being in the constant state of "Download" and being in the constant state of "Contemplative Prayer". Yea !
Love, TuckerThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Tucker,
And Phil, I think that being in a constant state of contemplative prayer is the answer to the uncontrolled Kudalini.
Contemplative prayer is the only way I've found to deal not only with kundalini, but everything else in life.
Tucker, the explanation for kundalini you present seems very biological. As I know you are familiar with the Hindu system, what do you make of the view of kundalini as shakti, the divine feminine, rising to merge with Shiva? This seems central to the Hindu literature on kundalini.
Good question Phil . And I really like what you said about contemplative prayer ( ! ). Your suggestion that it could be a real friend in helping with this challenge we and others like us seem to be up against is in My reality a "God send".
Shakti as the Kundalini? First of all we have two Kundalini's. If you look at the medical symbol you will see that there are two snakes, one snake represents the female side of the brain and one represents the male side of the brain. And when you and I are in the state of "Contemplative Prayer" we are experiencing the same thing as a state of being as those that bring the Shakti Kundalini up to merge with Lord Shiva. It is just that we are attached to or merged with the Divine through Lord Jesus instead of Lord Shiva. Which is why a lot of folks maintain that the Holy Spirit is female. Both the Holy Spirit and the brought up Shakti Kundalini are a female side of the brain phenomenon. The spirit side of the brain. And this is with the understanding that the Shakti is brought up to the Shiva while the Holy Spirit, is brought down to the presences of Lord Jesus that dwells within us. Lord Jesus is the body physical (male side of the mind) and the Holy Spirit is the body spiritual (the female side of the mind), so to speak. The original goal of the really ancients of this yogi stuff, for lack of any other term, was to create a state of being where the male side of the mind and the female side of the mind were in a state of divine union and working together as a loving team or pair.
Somewhere along through time this complete system was lost and things broke up into to two (the snake and the bird) different systems which then, for the most part, these two systems braking up in to different versions of these systems with the understanding that each version considered itself a complete stand alone system. Which is why in today's world there is so much confusion when one tries to tie these systems together in a meaningful way. And what if funny is in the original system energy came down from the Divine (the Egyptians called this Divine the "Ra") to feed the Divine pair with Divine energy.
Here is something that you might find interesting Phil , being in the state of "Contemplative Prayer" is one of the beginnings of the path to achieving the complete system. The second part is when you begin to feel the presence of the "Body of Christ" within you. The third part is when the Spirit and the Body in a state of union reach out to and create a connection to the Loving Divine or Heaven which is located at a 45 degree angle up from the forehead part of the face. If you reach up your arms and hands toward Heaven at a 45 degree angle and gaze toward Heaven you will feel this connection and over time this connection will become permanent. Once this connection is made, the loving pair, that is you, at least reality to the two sides of your mind and body being in a state of balance, will fed Divine energy directly from the Loving Divine.
Phil, I started with the presence of the Body of Christ and the connection to Heaven. And, when you suggested "Contemplative Payer" as a possible solve to Kundalini issues, you gave me the last key to the complete system. Well Phil , after a lifetime of questing (well at least since I was twenty-three) we now have a yoga (yoga means, "Union") system for Christians, those that may wish to explore that reality , that no Hindu system can equal. And even if they modify their system to include the three parts, because their goal is "Self Realization", they are no going to end up in the same place that Christians do. "A child of the family of the Father of Christ Jesus".
Love, TuckerThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Tucker,
Wow, Tucker, that's some real meat and potatoes, for sure. Some of it resonates with basic Christian teachings on theosis, or spiritual development; other parts are new and something of a bridge to Hinduism and even Taoism.
In all of this, one would expect a good and loving God to make it as simple as possible for us wounded human beings to be healed and transformed, and I think that is indeed the case. Only, "simple" doesn't mean simplistic or without difficulties. Still, it comes down to faith, baptism, opening oneself to God's Spirit, and letting the Spirit lead. One doesn't even have to understand how any of this works. In the end, it's a relationship and a new belonging, as you note, to the Trinitarian family.
The 45 degree angle tip you share is one I've discovered -- that often at some point in prayer, as the 3rd eye is filled, the eyes strain upward as though looking beyond everything unto some realization that is not yet manifest. Lifting the arms in prayer and praise is another. Are you familiar with Moses' lifting his arms in blessing on the Hebrew troops in battle? They even propped up his arms. (See Exodus 17:8-13) The Psalmist also speaks frequently about lifting his arms in prayer. I have a long standing practice of lifting up my arms as you describe several times a day and saying the Lord's Prayer mindfully. I believe the Spirit leads us to do what is needed if we are docile to Her leadings.
Thank you for your sharing. I know what an effort this is for you, but it is much appreciated, and I hope others are reading and benefiting as well.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Who knew ? I sure didn't. "The Father" is that area in Heaven, "The Son" is the Body of Christ as your body, and "The Holy Spirit" is the energy field that surrounds your body, including the areas above and around your head. Also when you make the sign of the cross, you stimulate the major life energy center of the body with the start of the cross; you then go down and stimulate the area of the adrenals, the major power energy center of the body; and you then come up with the arms of the cross and stimulate the heart energy center of the body and the immune system. It is all there Phil and it is Christian. And it does more than any other yoga tradition in today's world. The only problem is that a lot of people do not feel worthy enough to allow the body of Christ to indwell their body. What they do not understand is that the sacrifice and resurrection of our Christ brings us in under the law of "Grace" which does make us worthy enough. Lord Jesus does not expect us to be able to do it ourselves. Which is why He gave us the gift of His "Body" within us, and the gift of the Holy Spirit within our spirit. And, with the gift of His sacrifice and resurrection He gives us the permission to approach The Father for Holy Nourishment and to receive this Holy Nourishment. Something that we can not do ourselves has been made a free gift to those who wish to be a part of the family of the Father of Lord Jesus. The Father that we as Christians worship as our God. Other folks go different places and do different things, but there is nothing that equals the being a member of the family of the Father of Lord Jesus. And it is all actually a "Free" gift that leads back to eating from the Tree of Life.
Another problem Phil, is that this is not, for the most part, of that which has become today's Christianity. And, if the concept was to be taken seriously it would be a threat to a lot of folks "rice bowls", so to speak. Another thing that is funny is that you do not have to die to become a member of the family of the Father of Lord Jesus and eat from the Tree of Life. You can also do it as a physical being on this planet. It is just that you will be healthier, happier, and live longer than most folks normally would.
Phil, I can't say this enough , your suggestion about the possibility of "Contemplative Prayer" being a solve and the way that you experience "Contemplative Prayer" when you do it (because I can feel what you are experiencing when you do it) created the key to an understanding that caused everything to fall into place. Years and years and years of exploration has now come together in understanding thanks to your suggestion and the way that you do it. It brings to an end to a very long and mostly painful journey and starts the beginning of a new journey for me. I am no longer seeking anymore because I now have a clear cut way of just doing and a clear understanding of why it works. Phil, I really do not like life, but I now have to hang around just to see where this goes. Argg !
Love, TuckerThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Tucker,
So glad you found that remark about contemplative prayer helpful, Tucker. I'll have more reflection on your posts later, but thought you might enjoy the link below.
Edgar Cayce had this idea of how the Lord's Prayer resonates with the chakras, which he associated with endocrine glands. I'm not a big Cayce fan, but I do like this graphic.
- see http://shalomplace.com/res/lrdpryr.html
Phil, I have read most of the books about Edgar Cayce in my younger days. But to be honest I haven't thought about him for years. The graphic by him is interesting, but this really caught my eye:
"D. The human soul is a created substance.
It is also a fallen creature that has lost consciousness of its “natural union” with God. Consequently, the powers of the soul have been wounded and generally operate in a context of ignorance, illusion. and self- preference. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church teaches that it is possible through the right use of reason and conscience to ﬁnd one’s way back to a right relation with God and an experience of this natural union. These experiences are of a different order than those which come through faith. The latter are considered supernatural, enabling the human subject to know something of the Personal nature of God. and to love God in return. Therefore Christian mysticism generally assumes a relational context, even when the Christian mystic becomes awakened at the level of the apex of the soul, where one’s being is received from God."
"The goal of the Christian (in a Scholastic perspective) is to lead one to a relational experience with God which serves as the context for inner transformation. Through grace, the individual comes to participate in the life of God, while remaining an individual human person (theosis)."
It shows me that I am not really very far off as a Christian mystic . And the way that that article compares the Christian approach and the Hindu Yoga approach follows closely to what I was trying to say. I like the concept of "natural union" . And I have never thought about things like that before. The presence of the body of Lord Jesus in union with our body purifies our body and bring it into a higher state of holiness and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our spirit brings it into a higher state of holiness. With, these higher more pure states not being possible without the presence of the templates of Lord Jesus and the Holy spirit being in union with our body and spirit. There is an old adage that is usually considered a warning: "Be careful what you channel, because you become what you channel."
The problem is that none of this stuff is for today's normal Christians. But they, as far as I am concerned, are already saved, so that doesn't really matter. This stuff is for those Christians that want something more, especially those Christians that are looking toward Hindu yogi stuff to find that something more. I do not ever expect to teach this path back to "natural union" that I am presenting as an hypothesis and the use of the gifts that Lord Jesus has given us to make that path possible. I am too old and too broken, along with today's world bring in way to much of an uproar. So Phil, I am very appreciative that you allow me to post the things that I am posting and for being willing to discuss it with me and make contributions to it all of which brings the picture into a clearer focus and understanding.
Love, TuckerThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Tucker,
My new book will be an elaboration on these kinds of themes, Tucker.
One comment about the Trinity from an earlier exchange. Christianity doesn't adopt the kind of yin-yang approach to spirituality that Taoism, and to a lesser extent, Hinduism does, so you won't find it said anywhere that Jesus is the male principle influencing the left brain, and the Holy Spirit is feminine and right-brain. That's an interesting way to look at things, especially through Taoist lenses, but it wouldn't really hold up in the light of Christian theology and spirituality. For one thing, Jesus relates to us at times in a maternal fashion (e.g., crying over Jerusalem), and he is regarded as the way, the truth and the life. Also, the Holy Spirit blesses us with left brain kinds of gifts like wisdom, knowledge, understanding and courage. So it's difficult to interpret the ministry of Jesus and the Spirit in terms of brain function. What's emphasized more is that the Father is the unmanifest aspect of God, the Creator, Source of all that is; the Son is God-with-us, God-manifest; the Spirit is God within us, empowering us to live a Godly life. God beyond us, with us, within us: our Trinitarian God has us surrounded on all sides.
Phil, your comments are noted and fully understood ! The left brain is "Body Physical" and basically a Pituitary Gland phenomenon and the right brain is "Body Spirit" and basically a Pineal Gland phenomenon. Both sides of the brain can run the "Body Physical" and both sides of the brain have both male and female qualities. You can manipulate the "body physical" through the "body spirit" and you can manipulate the "body spirit" through the "body physical". The "body spirit" is the energy fields that surround the outside of the body including around and above the head. When you put thought into the different areas of that energy field that is outside the body you will stimulate the different areas of the "body physical" . An example: raise your eyebrows a little and then visualize a golden with a little bit of white sphere/ball of energy floating "in front of" the area of the top part of your forehead and then relax and feel what happens.
To be honest with you , I do not agree with the Taoist approach to describing things. Things are not male and female. They are the physical (matter) and the energy fields that the physical is immersed in. With the understanding that the physical is just "dried up" or condensed energy. Lord Jesus was our God in physical form and the Holy Spirit is our God in energy form.
And to be honest with you Phil , I do not believe in the chakra system either. It is a gross over simplification that is being presented as an absolute. Example: the heart center is not located in the solar plexus unless you are a Raja yogi or some version of it. They put it there because that area stimulates the "Fight or Flight" response in the regions of the lower hypothalamus. And learning to control that the emotions that are created when you stimulate those regions of the lower hypothalamus is paramount to developing the ability to raise of what they call the snake or male kundalini. Basically Raja Yoga, back in prehistory, was one of the systems used to train witch doctor and shaman type folk. It was also one of the systems that was used to train some of the different sects of the Druids. And these Druids were the Druids that Christianity caused to become extinct. They were also the "snakes" that St. Patric drove out of Ireland. These Druids were very powerful, not nice, and into human sacrifice. They were the war Druids. They weren't into Maypoles and stuff like that . The Druid sects that were not into war, the "snake", and human sacrifice were what was generally called the Nature and the Healing Druids and they actually sided with the Christians to help to over throw the "snake" Druids. Which is why the Church said that Pagans (the people who followed the Nature and Healing Druids) were exempt from Church law. And why there is some originally pagan practices that were incorporated into the Church practices. What is my reference source? I was there Phil and I still carry a lot of animosity toward those suckers and "snake" kundalini folks in general.
When you are interacting with a Taoist or with someone about Taoist stuff you approach your answer or conversation using the words and concepts as defined as the Taoist do. When you interact with a yogi of any given tradition or with someone about Yoga stuff you approach your answer or conversation using the words and concepts as defined as they do. When you are interacting with a Christian you use their approach to words and concepts which depends on what denomination they are. Otherwise there just isn't any conversation or change of ideas. And when you talk to any given individual you have to learn how they approach and define things as an individual to accomplish a meaningful exchange of ideas or information. Which can add up to a tricky learning curve . From there things can go into taking into account the personality programming of the person you are attempting to interact with. Because their personality programming "can" affect how you approach this interaction. Also whether you really want to approach or continue an interaction or not .
Phil because you have studied so many different belief systems you can approach things from a lot of different ways at any given point in time. So because you have so much back ground in a variety of belief systems I have a tendency to use these different belief systems and the way they define things as a part of whatever it is I am trying to say. But, when you say that you are talking to Christians and that something is not Christian, then everything changes. You said something back in the past that I will never forget and that I will always love you for. I was accused of being New Age and I got upset about it. And you said to me, "Do not worry about it Tucker, because you are way to Christian ."
Stages of Contemplation? Back about 15 years ago in late February of 2002, I appealed to Yogananda's Babaji for information and he appeared to me in my kitchen and he brought Shiva with him. The first thing that I knew that something was happening was Shiva dancing in front of me, which I learned later was how Shiva showed respect to a yogi. Please keep in mind that until that time I did not consider Shiva real and that I didn't know anything about him. Matter of fact, the first thing that I told him was that I was not afraid of him because I was a Christian because I didn't know at the time that he was showing me a sign of respect as a yogi. From there I went to asking Babaji questions and his only answer was, "The path is part of the experience," and then he left. Shiva stayed.
In a relatively short time we became friends and I baptized him in the name of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus with his permission. When I did this he changed from a sky blue white energy color to a golden white energy color and he became a really fun child that you just wanted to hug. Which was was a bit difficult because he was always moving. To this day he always makes me happy and to feel good when I am around him. It wasn't until quite a bit later that I found out that he was a Hindu god and that I had baptized and that I was friends with a Hindu god. Yogananda never mentioned or said that Shiva was a god in his book. All he said was that Shiva was the king of yogis. So anyway I went, "Whoa! eek! I hope that there is a reason for this?!" And then I quit worrying about it. After all nobody is going to believe me anyway . He is not my God, he is just a beloved friend, and the Shiva that I know is a Christian. This is the first time that I have ever posted this experience. And lets face, anyone that reads this is going to think that I have lost it and I do not blame them. Welcome to the world of one Christian mystic yogi .
Hi Tucker. Those are certainly interesting experiences you share! What do you mean when you say "I was there" about the ancient Druids? Are you alluding to past life experiences?
Anyway -- it's a tricky thing, transplanting an idea or concept from one religious tradition to another. I suppose that even in the best of cases, there will be some distortions. I takes time and patience to understand where another is coming from, and how their beliefs are like or unlike one's own tradition. Another problem is that many do not even have a deep understanding of their own tradition!
Regarding the chakras, the approach I am taking in my book is to speak of them in terms of how motives of attention are embodied. I'll leave the part about energy centers that have colors, sounds, shapes, etc. out of it. I also note that teachers east and west use the chakra system as way of organizing teachings about the spiritual life -- a developmental progression, of sorts.
I'm glad I had the good sense to have taken up for you way back when. But, fwiw, "New Age" isn't all that much of an insult. Doubtless, the person who said it probably didn't even know what they meant by it!
How does one baptize a non-physical entity? I've never heard of this before.
I have never heard of that before either . To be honest with you if I had known that the Shiva that I know was a Hindu god that I would have had nothing to do with him because I am way to Christian. But to me at the time, he was the King of Yogis and I was a serious yogi (Union) and he did seem to like me for some reason. At first he was scary and I thought that he was a demon, which is why I told him that I was not afraid of him because I was a Christian. I had no idea that he was showing me a sign of respect as a yogi. He was the ultimate manifestation of "Power" . After he was baptized he became a manifestation of "Love". It was like night and day. He loves Jesus and Jesus loves him and they both love me. The feeling that I get is that we were close in my last life. In my last life I was the father of what is called in today's world, "Kriya (action or movement) Yoga". The yoga system that Yogananda was teaching. It was something a bit radical that I wanted to share with others. Something that broke a bit from tradition. Yogananda's Babaji was my master at that time and he told me that it would not work, but I did it anyway as a gift to others. In this life I got to see why he was right, you can't fight tradition. Historically they (whomever) took the first initiation (with the first initiation being enough) and attached it to the Raja Yoga tradition with the eighth initiation being the raising of the male/snake Kundalini. The first initiation was a complete system in itself and it stimulates and wakes up everything in an organized and balanced way.
In today's world they have taken something that was free and are now making money teaching it. With the funny thing being that they have no idea what they are teaching with the first initiation or why it is called "Kriya (action or movement) Yoga." Also I was sworn to secrecy by the Kriya Yoga master that shared the first initiation with me a long while back because I didn't pay the $250 for it, so I am not allowed to talk about it or why it, the first initiation, is an awesome piece of brilliance from a yoga science standpoint. I do remember some pieces or parts of past lives and these pieces or parts are all attached to some strong emotion that I experienced at the time. As a Christian I feel that through Lord Jesus one lifetime is enough and I take the concept of reincarnation with a grain of salt, so to speak. I don't approach the concept of reincarnation as any big deal or with any reason to understand it or think about it. To me it is an unnecessary curiosity as a concept that I am not curious about . With Lord Jesus one lifetime is enough.
Sort of continued in my next post
Love, TuckerThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Tucker,
Tucker, were you new into yoga that you didn't know Shiva to be one of the Hindu deities? Also, what kind of encounter was this? A visionary experience? I've never had anything like this, though many Christian Saints and mystics have "seen" Jesus, Mary, other Saints, etc. They're considered real, though "private" revelation events. What's most interesting to me in all this is how Power becomes Love, which is what one would expect Jesus to do.
You also share about this past life like it's a very precise memory, and that's different from how I've heard others speak of it. I've puzzled over reincarnation and have noted that past-life experiences are not to be found among Christian Saints and mystics, nor is there anything about it in Scripture. People sometimes say that Jesus taught that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated, but that's not so, as a teaching I did on this topic once makes clear.
I'm not meaning to criticize, here: just wanting to understand your experience better. Through it all, your love for Jesus comes through loud and clear.
Cool questions Phil , thank you for the permission to have a "happy" brain chemistry moment! It is very much appreciated!
Well Humm ? Hey "guys", how do I put this stuff into words ?
Lord Jesus said that somebody that he had brought back to life was not dead, but that he was sleeping. He was dead but he was also just sleeping. So the question comes up what could He possibly mean when he said that? [A little side bar here] To me, the Shiva that I know is an ancient yogi that through a deep understanding of Yoga Science achieved physical immortality. And he is not actually a god as we think of a god, even though for all practical purposes he is a god because of the state of being that he has achieved. And if one appeals to him, he is a destroyer of worlds with the understanding that he always puts them back together again in a more positive loving way. To me this is a bit abrupt which is why I like the way that Lord Jesus seems to do things. As long as you don't appeal to Shiva to solve something and you just put that something in the hands of Lord Jesus, Shiva is a lot of fun to be around . At least in my experience.
Now with that said, "Past life experiences are not found among Christian Saints and mystics." First of all there is no reason for past life experiences to be there because that is not their goal as a mystic. The mystic world takes you to the places and understandings that are related to your goal as a mystic. It doesn't take you to other places and understandings. The mystic experience is a question and answer reality with the question defining the direction of the answer. I as a mystic wanted to know about everything so my questions led me into experiences and understandings that a normal Christian mystic does not experience. And this is with the understanding that if these other Christian mystics ever actually did deviate slightly, they would not talk about it because it is against Church Doctrine. Which they respect.
About reincarnation and Scripture, Scripture is founded on the Jewish religion and in the Jewish religion when you die you die. At least until someone returns and resurrects the faithful, for lack of any other word. In the case of Christianity this Somebody came early to say "hello" in a very profound way with the understanding that He would be back shortly, "if" it was the will of the Father. So Jewish folks and Christian folks are waiting for this Someone to come. The Christians are waiting for Him to return and the Jewish folks are just waiting. There is no reincarnation in the Jewish religion and the Christian religion is founded on the Jewish religion because our Christ Jesus was Jewish and his main validity came from ancient Jewish prophecy. And then Paul came along and changed things a bit by saying that you didn't have to be Jewish to follow Christ Lord Jesus which then brought the possibility of salvation to the whole world.
"Were you new into yoga?" Back in those days I was for years a cave yogi, which is someone that is basically out of touch with most everything and is studying things in a pure mystic reality. It wasn't until babji and Shiva showed up that I started researching Hinduism and Traditional Yoga yogi stuff. My reasoning was that I didn't want the experience to be corrupted by their traditions and beliefs. And I also wanted to eventually see how studying with Lord Jesus as my master in a mystic sense correlated with what the Hindu yogis were teaching. And what is interesting is that when I started looking into their stuff and what was being written about it, I found that I was way ahead of them in them in the foundation science that everything was based on. They just had a map that they were teaching without ever really having been to the end of that map and that they had no idea about the hows and whys of that map. I wasn't actually taught what today's yogis teach, I was taught the foundation science that everything that they teach is based on. Phil, I am so happy and grateful that Lord Jesus was my master because He taught me things that no living yogi in today's world can teach or for the most part even knows about .
Phil, I am a Christian mystic because I am a Christian (at least relative to most of the Protestant faiths ) and because Lord Jesus was my teacher and guide during all of my explorations as a mystic. And to be honest with you He was very patient with me. Because, I was very young and immature back in the old days with a lot of crumby personality programming, which He also solved . I love Him so very dearly and I am so very grateful to Him and His Father for saying "hello " to me with my first prayer as a five year old.
It has been a really rough haul and I never want to do it again, but I can not deny the gifts that the experience has given me and the closeness that it has brought me to the Father and Son. And now the Holy spirit.
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