I've been reflecting on this for the last week or so.

An old friend of mine reconnected with me a few weeks ago and we've been chatting quite a bit since then. His background is in Pentacostalism and Word of Faith/Prosperity Teaching.

As many of you might know these gatherings are full of "signs and wonders", experiences of being "slain in the Spirit", "Laughing/Crying in the Spirit" and many other bodily manifestations.

My friend has been growing dissatisfied with the focus on 'sowing and reaping' with a financial emphasis - which seems so manipulative and shallow. We both discussed the strange relationship between these shallow/erroneous/misguided teachings and the apparent presence of the Holy Spirit through the signs and wonders.

I suggested that maybe there was something else going on...that perhaps it way kundalini producing these manifestations and not necessarily the Holy Spirit.

And here is my point, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this:

Is there a difference between The Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit awakened or enlivened by that Baptism?

In classical Pentacostal and Charismatic theology the 'gift' and the 'Giver' of the gift are one and the same. In other words the manifestation of spiritual gifts is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit Himself. So, when we speak in tongues, it is the Spirit who speaks, when we prophesy, it is the Spirit who prophesies.

This may seem correct on the surface...

But then how could Paul rebuke the Corinthians for the way in which they were manifesting the gifts. If tongue speaking IS the Spirit speaking, or Prophesying IS the Spirit Prophesying, then the Spirit can do no wrong and hence there would never be the need for correction or rebuke.

But if the Spirit Baptism causes an activation of innate spiritual potentials then it is possible for these spiritual potentials to be used in unhealthy ways. It also means that these potentials may be activated in other means, some good, and perhaps some not so good (prayer, worship, meditation, shaktipat, occultic practices, demonic influence etc.)

Some in the Pentacostal circles are already aware of the similarities between these manifestations and kundalini, but believe it to be a demonic infiltration. I'm not suggesting that at all, but rather I think it shows what happens when the Holy Spirit and Kundalini are conflated and then the Holy Spirit's activity is attributed to any spiritual manifestation.

Here are some examples from youtube:

Kundalini Warning (short)
Kundalini Warning (part 1)
Kundalini Warning (part 2)
Kundalini Warning (part 3)
John Crowder - Mystic Communion
John Crowder - Ecstasy
Todd Bentley and his Wife

**Please note again that most of these videos take a negative outlook of what is happening (except the Crowder clips) I don't provide them for the commentary, but rather because they provide good examples of what I'm talking about.

Very good topic that we have touched on before, but not so directly.

I cannot respond to all these questions at once, but will share that I spent several years in the Catholic charismatic renewal in the 1970s, received the "baptism," gift of tongues, and was active at prayer meetings. I have been part of healing teams that prayed with people, who were healed. I served on a "Life in the Spirit Seminar" team and prayed over people for the baptism (later we called it "release") of the Spirit. Eventually, I felt like I was ready to move on, as my prayer had become more contemplative, but I credit those years in Renewal (and Cursillo) with helping me become more open to God and the Spirit's guidance in my life.

Initially, in the early 70s, one saw very little of the kundalini stuff in prayer meetings. We prayed, sang, listened to preachings, chanted in tongues, listened to prophecies, sat quietly for long periods, and had Eucharist. There were quite a few charismatic priests in those days, though bishops were a bit hands-offish about it. The overall milieu was joyous and full of evangelical fervor. You just wanted everyone to know the love and joy of the Lord so intimately. And tongues! Wow, what a boon to one's prayer life.

By the late 70s, we were seeing more and more people being "slain in the Spirit" when they came up for prayer. Some pray-ers seemed to be able to convey the "gift" more predictably than others. We even began to have "catchers" to keep people who were slain from hurting themselves. The "slain" would usually lie on the floor, babbling in tongues, sometimes jerking around. When they "came to," they seemed full of peace and joy, though they had no memory of what had happened to them. I thought that all very strange and my priest friends weren't sure what to make of it. I never experienced this, btw, but it was thought that it was probably some kind of mystical ecstacy, where the body's nervous system was temporarily overwhelmed by spiritual power. That still seems to me a good interpretation.

A few years after I left the renewal movement (on good terms with everyone), I began to have the kinds of k phenomena I relate in my book -- including spontaneous kriyas. In retrospect, I see that this was an extraordinarily stressful time with work and family, and so that contributed to what was going on. Even during the most intense kriyas, however, I could always just stop it if I wanted to, and I think that's probably true of everyone except those in a mystical ecstacy, where they are semi-unconscious. But one senses that the kriya is doing a good thing and feels relief and consolation from the movement, so one goes along with it. Still, if the phone or doorbell rang, I could get up and be "normal." As I note, so can most everyone else. It is not a form of possession.

Looking back on my experience of charismatic spirituality, I would now say that it can indeed arouse or awaken the kundalini process, though in the context of openness to the Holy Spirit. Kundalini phenomena were not the focus; life in the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit were. But there is a definite shaktipat dynamic at work in charismatic groups: in the highly-charged gatherings, individuals with shaktipat gifts, groups praying over someone, chanting in tongues, etc. All this is recorded in Scripture as well, including 1 Cor. 14, where things had apparently gotten out of hand, to Paul's encouragement that Timothy keep the Spirit alive in him (2 Tim. 1:6). It's also clear that not every early community was charismatic like the Corinthians.

So I think what we do or can observe in some manifestations of Christian pentecostal/charismatic groups is kundalini phenomena, though mostly as concomitant phenomena related to prayer and exercising the charisms in a worshipful, communal setting. It also seems that there are instances (e.g. Toronto Blessing) where the phenomena are so bizarre as to become a focus and distraction -- almost a madhouse, it seems! Perhaps that is how things were in that Corinthian community Paul was trying to correct. When disorder and bizarre phenomena characterize one's gatherings, then it's obvious that the group has strayed from its proper focus. That can certainly happen, which is why good leadership and teaching is needed in any community, charismatic or otherwise.

Samson wrote:

quote:

I've seen these videos too (not Crowder which I'll try and watch later.)

I think these two extremes are marked: one which indulges the energy but doesn't really know what it is and confuses it with Holy Sprit because of the signs and wonders which are really just by products of energy; the other calling it demonic because of the weird manifestations and because their fundamentalist belief system demands that everything that comes from the east is evil.

This is why Phil's work is so important for Christians and why work by Lee Sannella and maybe Stan Grof is important because it demystifies kundalini by placing it in a scientific or psycho-therapeutic context.

What these Mooji videos is making me do is see clearly that kundalini is just a vehicle to something more essential, making me ask, well, what's true, what's real, what do I believe about myself, and letting the energies do what they must around this. This seems to be alleviating some of the negative symptoms in the head, the pressure etc, for the time being at least, confirming the idea that energy in the head is addressing belief about the self, ego, self image, true self, all these things, and leading to that underlying awareness or Self which seems to be nourished by God.

Just watched "Kundalini Warning No. 3" and there's some good examples of kriya stuff going on. Then the narrator lumps in Centering Prayer, Contemplative Prayer, angels and even stigmata (a movement?) as dangers to be aware of and renounce. That sort of undoes some of the legitimate criticisms he's making and shows him up to be rather ignorant of Christian mystical spirituality, on the whole.

Thanks for sharing some of your charismatic experiences Phil. It certainly is interesting and significant that the 'charismatic renewal' spread throughout all of Christianity, leaving no tradition, group or denomination untouched. Peter Kreeft considers it one of the leading points in ecumenical endeavors amongst Christians.

I wonder what the significance is of the fact that initially the renewal began, as you also suggest, with basic Spiritual Gifts as described in the New Testament, with the Kundalini type manifestations only coming later...this seems true in Pentacostal and Charismatic groups as well.

My family and I are going camping in Botswana tomorrow and so we'll be away for two weeks, hope everybody stays well and I'll catch up when we get back. Grace and Peace and Love in the Lord Jesus.