It is true God is never depressed but I am. Actually because of the divorce and I am holding the paper in my hand my emotions have been all over the place mostly angry at my self and sad lots of fantasy to escape my feelings.

Hypocricy, a topic I have some considerable experience with, came up at group tonight. Feedback
from several individuals, and people who know me well, is that I can be arrogant and presumptuous.
That's the wonderful thing about a home group, they
can call me on my stuff. They know how to do this very effectively after having had the benefit of others doing it for them. If my thin skin can't take it, then that's just too bad. They have done their duty. If I can receive it and learn from it, then their efforts will not have been in vain.

Lots of shadow exploration, then some more...

I felt better about smoking a pack a day after learning yesterday that C.S. Lewis was up to three packs, between pipes.

Better methinks, to stay busy enough to not think about myself and make all these useless comparisons. EGO = Easing God Out

blessings2all

It is true God is never depressed but I am. Actually because of the divorce and I am holding the paper in my hand my emotions have been all over the place mostly angry at my self and sad lots of fantasy to escape my feelings.

Feeling God in Vulnerability

quote:

Sometimes we understand things through their absence. The experience of loneliness teaches us about love. Sometimes too the more painful the absence, the more we�re opened to what we�re missing. The more fierce and raging the loneliness, the bigger the cavern for love it creates inside of us.

That�s true too for our understanding of God and what it means to draw life from God. If loneliness is what we feel when love is absent, what do we feel when God and grace are seemingly absent? And if loneliness stretches our hearts for deeper love, what does a feeling of God�s absence create inside of us?

We feel the seeming absence of God whenever we feel these things: anxiety for no apparent reason, feelings of guilt we can�t explain, a helplessness we can�t do anything about, fear of death, a nagging sense that something isn�t right, a feeling that somehow we aren�t good enough, a restless drive to make a name for ourselves, a greedy need to drink in as much life as we can, and the inchoate feeling that nothing�s enough, that we aren�t enough, that life isn�t enough, that we�re standing on the edge of nothingness.

At one level, these feelings can all be explained away as nothing more than neuroses, hang-ups, signs of immaturity, lack of robust health, lack of resiliency, over-sensitivity, as signs that we�re weak, over-timid, out-of-sorts.

That can be true, but sensitivity also indicates life, humanity, depth, feeling, faith. What�s alive is sentient, tender to feeling. It�s what�s inanimate and dead that�s never crippled by feelings. Brute things don�t suffer anxiety, rocks don�t worry about betrayal, and self-centered egoists aren�t concerned about sin.

The short-term message, Brother Jaan, and perhaps the only message that is possible, is to not run away from those feelings. You�re deathly afraid (like most of the human race) to let them in because that would mean a sure plunge to the bottom, to the depths of despair, to the pit of emotional hell.

First off let me say that if you or I ever found a foolproof way to stay with unpleasant feelings instead of avoiding them (and thus become healed) we would unquestionably win the Nobel Prize. This is such a huge issue in human affairs, if not the issue. We don�t tend to easily face painful feelings. We are usually far more ready and able to deal with issues involving our physical survival than we are dealing with issues involving the survival of some idea about ourselves or the world. We have no problem removing, say, a splinter and thus ending our pain but to do the same regarding an idea in our heads is devilishly difficult�often nearly impossible. And that�s probably the real issue here, Brother Jaan. To come to terms with rejection is to face �standing on the edge of nothingness�. If we believe we can be confirmed only by other people then there is simply no place to go, no place to settle with those feelings. They MUST be avoided or denied because there is no resolution to them other than to come to the logical conclusion that we are unworthy of love and acceptance.

This is what the author of the above article surely means by �standing on the edge of nothingness�. And frankly, I�m not even sure god exists (and other times it scares the hell out of me to think that he does), but I do know that there is a place, a platform, or some solid structure that we can indeed rest on. We don�t have to keep ourselves inflated over the �edge of nothingness� with drugs, sex, bursts of ego, pride, etc. That�s an awful lot of work. Living is no longer living. It�s like being employed at the circus as a juggler. One has to keep all these things in the air at the same time because if they ever fell to earth there would be nothing to keep them, and us, from sinking completely into the abyss�or so we think. But this is not so. There is something solid in just being. That takes no mask, no effort, no games, and no fancy juggling. And right now, for you, being is being with some pain. It�s not trying to figure anything out, for there is likely nothing to figure out�but there is plenty to feel. Bad feelings, even the worst of the worst feelings, do not weaken that sturdy platform on which we can all depend. One can have any kind of emotion and still sit comfortably and surely on that solid structure.

Here's a little essay I thought you might appreciate, Brother Jaan. I know I did:

Lost is a Place Too

quote:

"There's nothing wrong with you; indeed, there's a lot right with you. You're where you should be right now: in the desert, letting the merciless sun do its work; in a dark night, undergoing an alchemy of soul; in exile, lamenting on a foreign shore so that you can better understand your homeland; in the garden, sweating the blood that needs to be sweated to live out your commitments; being pruned, undergoing spiritual chemotherapy, to shrink the tumours of emotional and spiritual dead-wood that have built up from wrong-turns taken; in the upper room, unsure of yourself, waiting for pentecost before you can set out again with any confidence; undergoing positive disintegration, having your life ripped apart so that you can rearrange it in a more life- giving way; sitting in the ashes, like Cinderella, because only a certain kind of humilation will ready your soul for celebration; and undergoing purgatory, right here on earth, so your heart, soul, and body can, through this painful purging, learn to embrace what you love without unhealthily wanting it for yourself.

Knowing this, of course, doesn't make it easier to accept feeling lost and on the outside, especially in a world in which being successful is everything. That's why it's hard to ever admit, even to our closest friends, that we're struggling, tasting more ashes than glory. Small wonder that our Christmas letters to our friends each year invariably are a list of all that's gone well in our lives and never an admittance of struggle or humiliation.

The same holds true in our personal lives. We have our good seasons, but we have seasons too where we lose relationships, lose health, lose friends, lose spouses, lose children, lose jobs, lose prestige, lose our grip, lose our dreams, lose our meaning, and end up humbled, alone, and lonely on a Friday night. But that's a place too, a valid and an important one. Inside that place, our souls are being shaped in ways we cannot understand but in ways that will stretch and widen them for a deeper love and happiness in the future.

Well everyone I find myself back at the third step. I have a new spiritual director a benedictine monk from Holy Cross monastery. after talking with me he was convinced that I do not believe but just intellectually assent to the faith. He said I need to make faith an act of the will before I can surrender anything. I honestly think he is right feeling bad is my idol and my addiction is how I escape. The monastery has been good for me a place of quietness and reflection. I always come back feeling lighter.

Hey brjaan, that's great!

"When we sincerely took such a position, all sorts of remarkable things followed. We had a new employer. Being all-powerful, he provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well. Established on such a footing, we became
less and less interested in ourselves, our little plans and designs. More and more we became interested in seeing what we could contribute to life. As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of his presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow and the hereafter. We were reborn."

Big Book, page 63

Thank you very much for reminding me.

Well everyone I find myself back at the third step. I have a new spiritual director a benedictine monk from Holy Cross monastery. after talking with me he was convinced that I do not believe but just intellectually assent to the faith. He said I need to make faith an act of the will before I can surrender anything. I honestly think he is right feeling bad is my idol and my addiction is how I escape. The monastery has been good for me a place of quietness and reflection. I always come back feeling lighter.

Wow. I think you've already shown that those guys know their stuff. That all sounds really good, Jaan. And I think that's a fantastic insight about feeling bad being an idol. Somebody who is struggling with something similar is not sitting a million miles away from you. And how cool to be in a monastery! That sounds wonderful. Be at peace. You deserve it.

Thanks Brad

The last couple of days have been a very fourth step for myself. I have always taken out my anger on myself making myself sick and isolated. The last couple of days I have been think my stuff and others in a different light. I am not angry at myself and maybe I am okay. For me it is a scary thought and it is making it easier to forgive myself and let go of the responsibility of others.

brjaan,

That seems like my inventory alright. Took me years to get to that, and I still have to deal with it every day. I have a freind like that too. He shuts himself up with Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage on the radio all day, and if anyone challenges his assumptions, he tends to get violent and throw things. Mostly, I think he's afraid to get a job.
Moral: never leave your child a trust fund...

The last couple of days have been a very fourth step for myself. I have always taken out my anger on myself making myself sick and isolated. The last couple of days I have been think my stuff and others in a different light. I am not angry at myself and maybe I am okay. For me it is a scary thought and it is making it easier to forgive myself and let go of the responsibility of others.

Isn't it weird how it can be okay to be human and flawed if we are simply honest with ourselves and others about it? This leads to accepting others and ourselves as we are. This is based on not needing to be perfect in order to be lovable or likable. We realize we're just all one great, big, unwashed mass of sinners. Some are just better at hiding it than others. But what a relief to know that not only don't we have to be perfect to be loved but that, quite specifically, we can be loved because we're imperfect.

I hope you keep us informed of your progress because hope is a very nice thing, brother Jaan.

I'm interested in this discussion because I have a long term battle with depression. Since having an ICD implanted I now experience anxiety and insomnia.
I've been seeing a therapist (not Christian) for two years, and also have medication. I saw a psychiatrist five years ago who said with my history of depression I should stay on it permanently. I don't have a problem with that as I understand the biological basis of my type of depression and want to stay functional!
However, with my therapist I quite often feel as if my faith is being challenged. She sees my reading the Bible and praying as attempts to cope with my anxieties and this disturbs me because my faith is real, and God isn't a psychological construct to me. I'm afraid of trying to cope on my own though - she is very good and I have made real progress. I guess I need to discuss this with her, but I often feel 'dragged down' when I see her, even when things seem okay, as if I have to dredge it all up when I don't want to, but that's what you do in therapy.
At the same time I'm reluctant to find a 'Christian' counsellor as I don't think there are many that would really understand how things get and are for me at times. I am also reluctant to find a spiritual director because there are times when I'm frankly not well and I'd hate to inflict myself on someone else! My therapist is very insightful and compassionate, its just this one thing that bothers me.

She sees my reading the Bible and praying as attempts to cope with my anxieties and this disturbs me because my faith is real, and God isn't a psychological construct to me. I'm afraid of trying to cope on my own though - she is very good and I have made real progress. I guess I need to discuss this with her, but I often feel 'dragged down' when I see her, even when things seem okay, as if I have to dredge it all up when I don't want to, but that's what you do in therapy.

I would definitely have a polite chat with your therapist, FrancesB. Just tell your therapist that you think he or she is doing a great job and that your religion is something that you feel is complimentary to the therapy, not in competition with it.

Yes, thanks. That's good advice.
The wondering whether to continue with her is related to feeling that if I were really faithful and trusted God then I wouldn't need anything else and/or wouldn't have the difficulties I (sometimes)have.
The writer of a book I'm reading (The Cloister Walk) suggests that the psalms are helpful for this because they acknowledge the anger, frustration and powerlessness we all feel at times. She (Katherine Norris) had the same impression as I have (had?), that if you were a 'good' Christian then you would be all sweetness and light all the time. You know, imitating Christ - mind you, thinking about it He wasn't the easiest bloke to be around at times!
BTW I hadn't made the connection between addiction and emotional problems - in the sense of being addicted to feeling a certain way. That's a helpful idea.
FrancesB

The wondering whether to continue with her is related to feeling that if I were really faithful and trusted God then I wouldn't need anything else and/or wouldn't have the difficulties I (sometimes)have.

FrancesB, that reminds me of a joke:

quote:

A man fell overboard from his little boat and was thrashing around in the water when another boat pulled up.

"Jump in," shouted the boater. "We'll save you."

"No", cried the drowning man, "God will save me."

The scene was repeated twice more, before a helicopter finally arrived and hovered over him. Once again, the man refused help on the same grounds ... God would save him.

The man drowned and as he crossed the Pearly Gates he gazed into God's eyes with obvious confusion.

"I placed my faith in you and you let me drown," he complained.

"Let you drown?", exclaimed God. "I sent three boats and a helicopter."

�that if you were a 'good' Christian then you would be all sweetness and light all the time.

I suppose there can be a "sweetness and light" quality even to our pain and suffering.

Brad,

So you have been attending meetings! It's still a
good joke to remember, even after hearing it hundreds of times from newcomers and oldtimers. One
of the central points and pillars of recovery, . Most of the good ideas in the twelve steps originated in a church somewhere and are widely disseminated and cross-fertilized and get sent back around to the churches again.

FrancesB,

I haven't finished Cloister Walk yet, but the fact that you are reading it makes you someone I would like to know! The book was very popular, and along with Thomas Merton's journals and the Philokalia gives me hope for the future now that mysticism is "out of the closet." Wonderful!

caritas,

mm <*))))))><

I'va had The Cloister Walk on my shelf for a while, but didn't pick it up until recently. I've always been interested in monastacism and mysticism, but haven't read any Thomas Merton or the Philokalia. I didn't even know who Merton was until I picked up a biography in a charity shop. Another book on my shelf. I knew someone who used to say that the book you needed would always 'call' you from the shelf, so if you're attracted to a book then keep it even if you can't imagine when or why you'd read it. That's what happened with the Norris book.
I've always (half) joked that if anything happened to Andrew (my husband) I'd join a convent - if they'd have me! Seriously though I spend a week every year at a convent guesthouse in Oxfordshire. They are Poor Clares, only ten of them left and with an average age of 65. They are Franciscan rather than Benedictine, and Anglican rather than Roman Catholic. I love it there though. Of course I don't have the hard physical work, that's one thing I know I wouldn't cope with - I have a heart problem that is limiting, - but I do love the contemplative nature of Franciscan spirituality and the structure and discipline. Like the Benedicines, the Franciscan Office uses the Psalms at every reading. I feel genuinely called to the Franciscan way, and not just because we share a name
They and Norris' book show me that there isn't one way to do God's work. How many times have I read that verse about different abilities but I never applied it to me!
FrancesB

Brad,
I liked the joke - it bears repeating if its an old one!
FrancesB

God sends me boats and helicopters every day, which I frequently as not fail to recognize. I met a young
man in premed who has vowed to quit smoking pot and do something with his life. More power to him!
Sometimes all I can share with them is not to do what I did. or still do....

Sometimes all I can share with them is not to do what I did.

Yes. I fit very comfortably with that sentiment, MM. I find it difficult to turn the tables from a negativistic to a positivistic outlook. But surely that is a large part of any type of transformation. There's a whole herd of "don't-do's" gathered up inside our head. We've got a whole pasture of them; in fact, an expansive prairie. To change the landscape is to rope just a couple "do's" from the herd and hang on. Do be authentic. Do be loving, but if you're not feeling particularly loving, then feel what you're feeling now. Do be hopeful, but if you're feeling down in the dumps then feel down in the dumps.

The trick, I think, is that "positive" ain't just all "rah-rah", I love god, I'm happy to be alive, top of the morning to you stuff. It's cutting out of the herd the numerous "I should feel this way's" or "I should be this way's". It's about what is. What is can look quite ugly, undeserving, and hopeless from a certain perspective but one need only find at least the beginnings of the sheer and enormous value of THATness in one's being. And quite often that THATness is hiding in some very unlikely places. Truth doesn't give a whit about what we want it to be. It just is. And it's always far friendlier and easier to handle than the opposite which is the complex network of justifications, delusions, biases, etc., that try to hold together our Rube-Goldberg-like images of who we are, should be, or need to be.

Don't look for redemption, per se. Let god divvy that out. Don't look for things to balance or counterbalance your life. Don't look to plug holes. Don't look to make up for shortages. Realize that everything is just one small part of completeness. And as ugly, incompetent, stupid, short-sighted, and clumsy as we may be, this is simply the human perspective talking. All these perceived shortcomings can only be perceived because of the very large part of completeness and rightness that is contained in all of us.

I have read all the posts and found them to be helpful. The last couple of days have been extremely hard and painful. My wife through an email reminded me of all my sins which are legion and why we can never get back together. I cried in the confessional and at home. Honestly today I could use everyones prayers.

My wife through an email reminded me of all my sins which are legion and why we can never get back together. I cried in the confessional and at home. Honestly today I could use everyones prayers.

Brother Jaan, can you let go of anger? Can you let go of anguish? Can you let go of heartache and neediness? Can you let go of trying to control? Can you let go of despair? Can you let go of all these things and believe, really believe, that what is left, whatever it is, is going to be better, stronger, saner, healthier, and more loving? Can you do the most insane and stupid thing that a human being can do and as a last resort Trust to Divine Providence for the direction of your life and marriage? Because that's the only thing that will likely help you now. You must find a way out of the trenches of battle and transcend. You must make a leap of faith. This present hardship is a message for both of you, singly or together, to grow.

One of the interesting things about Transcendence is that it transcends. There are other things in the world that work that way as well. Ever hear of quantum tunneling? It's where an elementary particle, such as an electron, can pass through to the other side of some barrier just like magic. It transcends the limitations of normal classical physics. If cupid is the classical physics equivalent of love, with his arrows that fly straight and true and pierce many hearts, than Christ, for instance, is the quantum mechanical equivalent of quantum tunneling. That is to say, there is love that can pass through seemingly impenetrable barriers. There is love that can heal great mountains of divide with just a smidgen of energy. And we can emulate that love and healing as well. But I'm not sure if true healing in this case means fixing a broken marriage. It could mean bringing peace and comfort to you individually�and then who knows?

Do you think it's stupid and ridiculous that one could have so much love for a person that they could let them go, that they could live out what is in that corny poem? If you love somebody, let them go, for if they return, they were always yours. And if they don't, they never were. Is there such thing as fate and destiny or do we have to scratch and claw like mad to hold onto just a little slice of heaven, should that slice ever come our way? When do we fight? When do we let go? And when do we try a third option and "let God"?

If I had any answer then my own love life wouldn't be so screwed up. But I think there's some truth in just backing off a bit, toning things down, trusting to God with things a person has almost no help of controlling, as much as we might want to. And you can bet you are in all our prayers.

A man asked me about self-esteem yesterday, as if expecting me to know something about it. God pulled an answer out of me in response to his need. In the answer I gave him about pulling esteem in from the outside versus finding it within and in relation to God, I realized I had an answer for myself as well.
This is how 12 step fellowship works. Find someone in more pain that you are and see if you might help them, and recieve a blessing in the process. The Dalai Lama says that this is what "smart" selfish people do. "Dumb" selfish people waste time in regrets and the past, the past, the past...

I was still afraid of the process for years. This
man from yesterday is taking about five years to take the fourth step. Oh, well, it's not a race...

That's a great suggestion MM. There are always people who are worse off in the world. I remember a good bit of self loathing I was in last year. I then met a little girl who had cancer. I quickly became quite ashamed of myself.

My experience with her left me feeling that I had much growth to attain. This little girl seem to have more life experience in her 4 years than I had my whole life.


"God is dead" -- Nietzsche.

"Nietzsche is dead" -- God

"I felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet." --smart guy

Phil,

Do we need to start up another 12 step thread? What,
in your experience with the software, happens when we get up to 12 pages? Is there a limit? - mm

I think the new software is pretty stable, MM. Maybe a new thread on "working the Twelve Steps" would be a good one, however. As you wish . . .