Jacques, listening the inner voice of Christ has been the core of my spiritual experience. Despite many weird experiences Christ led me to traditional Church, to Bible and to Israel. Without this experience by myself I couldn't arrive to the situation I'm in today. When I think it in retrospect what happened is really really amazing. How can I be sure that I was led by Christ when I suddenly became attracted of Eucharist, Mary and recently Israel? I don't hesitate that it came from Christ because no evil power leads me to Christ, Eucharist, Mary, Israel, bible etc. Moreover I feel Christ grows in me more and more. No word can describe his love. With fellow Christians (no matter which church they belong) I feel deeply connected to the degree tears feel my eyes. Sometime I feel to be silent among them inorder to listen the love-bondage created by inner Christ. Do you understand my analogous? It is the same Spirit, the same love who shows me what happened on spiritual level totally independent of the thinking mind.

I do understand Grace and I suppose ultimately it is not something a person can proove or disproove. I think I still feel though that our interpretations of spiritual things may be flawed though I do not make a judgement on you.

quote:

Originally posted by Grace:
[qb]Everything that happens on one level gradually moves down through the other levels. For this reason I preview in the spirit what will be happening on physical earth in the coming years.[/qb]

Dear Grace,

I have not heard that theory of telling the future before and I doubt that it works very often (People who claim to know the future by whatever means are notorious for being wrong much of the time). Is it original to you? How did you get that idea?

Nothing is new under the sun. King David have been said something like that in the Bible. It is not something I created. Just because you don't know doesn't mean it is wrong.

One thing you have to know is I don�t predict the future. I said it before and I must repeat it now again. Since I don�t see substantial argument in your post I don�t have interest anymore to go round and round in this discussion.

Grace,

OK, I think I get the internal logic of your theory.

It goes something like this: If we assume that everything that will happen in the physical world has already happened in the mind of God, or in the spiritual world; then, of course, the second coming of Christ (which, according to the Bible and Church dogma, will happen sometime) has already happened in the spiritual realm. In fact, it had already happened at the beginning of creation! Right? Nothing is new. Everything already happened. This conversation we are having now, my misspellings and corrections, all happened at the beginning of creation! Correct. My feeling that this is happening for the first time is due to my inability to see the spirit realm. Is that what you are saying?

I feel I can relate to Grace's ideas here. It perhaps reflects the nature of consciousness and the cyclical nature of time (new age faves, I know) that all things pre-exist in the mind and it takes a certain openness (not necessarily a good thing) to perceive things in that part of the mind which tunes into the spiritual realms. I've had similar experiences of my own where I was aware of things in the spirit realm long before they happened physically. Again, like Grace, this wasn't seeing into the future, I'm not one for fortune telling, astrology, any of that, but still it happened that my mind was opened (in this instance by K) to the spiritual realms where the future had already happened.

Stephen, that is interesting. Thanks for entering this conversation. I've had things happen and then thought back to having a sort of prior knowledge. It made me wonder if the future was somehow knowable or somehow shaped by my knowing. But that was in retrospect. So I'm wondering, Stephen, when you saw the future, did you know at the time that it was the future or was it in retrospect that you realized you had seen the future? Can you give an example?

I do believe the future is known to God, but not in a pre-deterministic manner. More like foreknowledge. This means that God can convey this knowledge to whomever God wishes . . . as with the Hebrew prophets, Jesus, and certain Saints and mystics through the ages. That part is not controversial. Neither is the idea that Jesus has already come again spiritually. That's in part what the resurrection proclaims.

What is controversial and disputable, imo, is the idea that his spiritual presence to us is progressing via the levels of being unto a physical manifestation. That' sort of how it goes with our individual transformation -- spiritual conversion spreading to transform emotions, memory, and eventually the body. Maybe that's how the glorious return will happen, who knows? There's not been much in scripture, tradition, theology, etc. pointing to this kind of progressive manifestation. But, like I said, who knows?

My experiences aren't as pleasant or Christ-centred as Grace's, Ryan, and I don't particularly feel like going over them again. They're done and dusted, for the most part. I will say that I wasn't aware I was seeing (or more accurately, hearing) the future at the time. Only when I entered into the experience actually and physically did I understand the original mental/spiritual experience, and when the thing happened actually, it felt as if I was caught in a great reality trap, and I must say, Phil, it all seemed so predetermind, as if their never could be any escape from what I'd seen/heard and was now going through. All this involved the minutiae of life and not the momentous events Grace is talking about. My experience only sheds a little light on the nature of consciousness and points to the possibility of Grace's experience. It doesn't have any real value now for me as a Christian.

Solomae has written the following statement:

"There are seven 'main' levels, and within each level there are seven smaller levels (sub-levels). This probably goes on into even more layers of 7 within each sub-layer but I have only perceived the main seven and the seven sub-levels directly...What has occurred at the current plane of one's perception has yet to occur at the planes below it. When one's consciousness has ascended, and one remains in the physical body, one is able to perceive the span of the levels they occupy. This is what is so disorienting and confusing for those who have ascended. The consciousness has ascended and is experiencing one 'reality, but the physical body still occupies the physical plane and experiences another 'reality'."

I know this sounds very new age stuff but she is Christ-centered.
http://www.livingspiritfoundation.org/

Salomae's teachings are at odds with orthodox Christian teaching in many areas, Grace. Of course, it would be impossible to dialogue with her about this as it's all based on her personal experiences, which somehow ought to be considered definitive for all of Christendom and a correction to Christian dogma. That she is Christ-centered is besides the point. History is full of "Christ-centered" people who've been wrong, who've perpetrated heresies, who've led holy wars, who've burned people at the stake, etc.

It's not that there's no truth in what Salomae or other gnostics teach, of course. It's that it must be tested in the light of orthodox Christian teaching -- a standard to which sees no need to be accountable, going so far now as to set up her own "true Church," complete with ordination process and all (and herself at the top - a pope, of sorts).

The fullness of Christ resides in his body, the Church, not in any individual's mystical experience. That's the principle that separated apostolic Christianity from the gnostic groups from the first, and it's still the way we approach things.

It's not that there's no truth in what Salomae or other gnostics teach, of course. It's that it must be tested in the light of orthodox Christian teaching.

Phil, I fully agree with you. As I pointed out elsewhere our experience must be tested in the light of orthodox Christian teaching. Having affirmed this point I also see many truths in the writings of Solomae. I bring her here because I thought her point fit well in our discussion above.

Grace, does it make sense to you that Salomae speaks of experiencing "ascended consciousness" which is somehow a different consciousness than the one she experiences in the physical body? Makes no sense to me.

- - -

FWIW . . . Salomae once had a link to this site on hers and notified me about it. I looked around on her new site, called attention to it on mine, and wrote her an email critiquing her use of Gospel of the Holy Twelve on her site. I've critiqued that work elsewhere here; basically, it's an imaginative fantasy by a 19th C. British vegetarian/animal rights activist, who attempts to re-cast the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles to support his causes. Salomae considers it the "real deal," and uses it liberally to support her own teachings, which I notice now also emphasize vegetarianism.

Shortly after receiving my critique, I heard back from someone in her group that she didn't want to discuss it with me, so as not to disturb the "purity of her teaching." I could go on . . .

Just be careful about what you read there and how much you make of it. It all smacks very much of Christian gnosticism, with Salomae presenting herself as one who has attained the highest of states of consciousness, and whose teaching is therefore beyond critique or reproach.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]That part is not controversial. Neither is the idea that Jesus has already come again spiritually. That's in part what the resurrection proclaims.[/qb]

Phil, Could you say a little more about that. Are you saying that when you read biblical passages about the coming of Christ in the clouds with the holy angles, you see that as something that has already taken place spiritually?

Ryan, I wasn't referring to his glorious second coming at the end of this period of history, but his manner of abiding with us until that time. His ascension does affirm that he continues to be present to us through his union with the Word.

Phil, I�m interested to discuss the Solomae issue you raised above. Since this thread has its own topic and purpose can we continue our discussion on another thread or privately?

Grace, we already have "Gospel of the Holy Twelve" thread going, so maybe some of the discussion could go on there. I haven't had any more direct contacts with Salomae's ministry than what I briefly recounted above, but I do know others who have, with similar results. As some of this is confidential, there's only so much I can say. Contact me by email if you have questions.

What's of relevance about all of that to this thread is for you to maybe examine how much Salomae's writings have influenced your thinking. I know on another thread you raised the topic of "purity of experience," and so my comment, here, overlaps somewhat. It's very obvious to me that our experiences have a relationship to our inner framework of understanding, and that we see what we believe much more than the converse. This is not to say that there aren't experiences that go beyond our pre-conceptions and expectations; obviously, that happens -- and thank God! It's far more common that there be an ongoing dialectic between belief and experience, however.

Dear Stephan,

I wanted to respond to what you said here:
--------------------------
I will say that I wasn't aware I was seeing... the future at the time....and when the thing happened actually, it felt as if I was caught in a great reality trap,... it all seemed so predetermind, as if their never could be any escape from what I'd seen/heard and was now going through.
---------------------
I have experienced this exact same thing on a few ocassions...that I saw something over and over again in my mind, and then went through it as I had witnessed. It very much felt predestined and like I was in a 'reality trap,' that's a good way to put it. There was nothing I could have done to shape or prevent the thing. Very freaky and disturbing to me because it made me wonder what choices do I really have and aren't they an illusion in light of this 'previewing' of reality that seems to be possible?

In terms of the broader discussion on this thread, Grace, I respect your courage in relaying your experiences to us, knowing that the interpretations are certainly difficult to accept as valid.

Phil's encouraging us to consider our expectations and framework as it might shape our interpretations of mystical revelations is important. At the same time, I've had a few visions myself that seem utterly *outside* the realm of being interpretable, but they just seem like the truth--no if, ands, or buts. Still, I pray for God to reveal His wisdom and knowledge to me as I'm ready for it and with deepening humility. And I ask myself, does this revelation change my life in healthy, constructive ways that support and edify His Body? I guess it's a criteria similar to judging something by it's fruit...although the fruit can take a long time to become visible as such.
---------------------------------------

I would also like to respond to the comment about measuring our personal revelations / mystical experiences according to the Word. BTW, I am a fairly new convert to the Word. Just a few years ago, I became 'born again,' baptized in the Holy Spirit, but had read almost nothing of the Bible and did not take it very seriously. I used to tell folks in my prayer group that the Bible sounded like a bunch of 'crazy talk'! Then, the totally unexpected and unbelievable happened after I became baptized: the Lord began speaking to me in scripture! Just like that, I'd pray, Lord, this is killing me... I need a word to help me through this, and he'd say

"1 Peter, 4:7"

Amazing!! The scriptures, when revealed this way, are always entirely new to me. (Come to think of it, this scripture might fit for all of us in light of this discussion!)

Getting back to the point about evaluating everything against the Word, I am reminded that there are references in the Bible that suggest that some knowledge may not be revealed in this Word and some secrets may be kept from the Bible. For instance, the Gospel of John ends with something like: all the world could not contain all that Jesus said and did. Also, Jesus tells his disciples that 'there is so much more I could tell you, but you are not ready.' And St. Paul referes to the Corinthians as 'infants in Christ,' that he would like to feed them solids, but they are still requiring milk.

While we can speculate what this unrevealed knowledge or these secrets *may* be, we simply can't fully know what St. John, St. Paul, and Jesus meant.

with love to you all,
in our Lord,

shasha

Hey guys,

I too had some weird experiences that were like preknowing while I was on Drugs and experimenting with different forms of spirituality.

All I do know is that it does not bother me that God forknows the future. It does not mean He has chosen it for me. I decide and He knows what I will decide. He knows what everybody will decide, but it is still us who decide. This means God knows what will happen from the foundation of the world until its end, but we are still the ones who make it happen. Take prayer for instance...Does God change situations because we pray, yes He does, but He always knew we would pray and He would answer. If not we might as well not pray as the future is set. But it isn't set it is just known by God. Our role in it is still vital.

Much love in the Lord Jesus
Jacques.

That's how I understand foreknowledge, too, Jacques.

- - -

Good to read your reflections and sharing, Shasha. You noted:

quote:

I am reminded that there are references in the Bible that suggest that some knowledge may not be revealed in this Word and some secrets may be kept from the Bible. For instance, the Gospel of John ends with something like: all the world could not contain all that Jesus said and did. Also, Jesus tells his disciples that 'there is so much more I could tell you, but you are not ready.' And St. Paul referes to the Corinthians as 'infants in Christ,' that he would like to feed them solids, but they are still requiring milk.

Yes indeed! There are even passages like 1 Jn. 27, where it is written that you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and it has taught you, so you must stay in him. The "you" here can refer to an individual, but the larger context is the community, to whom John is writing. Nevertheless, we can trust that the Spirit will lead us to "see" and understand whatever truth and revelation God wants to impress on us.

Regarding the role of scripture in discernment, then, it's not so much a matter of constraining Christians so that everything we say and experience must have an explicit reference in the Bible. It's more a matter of viewing the Bible as a compass, of sorts, that provides a trustworthy reference for understanding God and God's will for us. So long as one's insights, visions, revelations, etc. do not conflict with Biblical teaching, then we at least can say that there is no good reason to close the door on them. It may be that they are of God, or simply the product of one's own imagination or intellect. That requires ongoing discernment.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] His ascension does affirm that he continues to be present to us through his union with the Word. [/qb]

Phil,

I've been puzzling over that statement for a while and it still doesn't make sense to me. Ascension would seem to accent departure rather than presence. And I see no connection between ascension and union with the word. I'm not saying this to debate. It is only that I don't get what you are saying. Would you clarify and elaborate?

Thanks,

Ryan, what do you think happened to Jesus with his ascension? You speak of him departing, but that's not it at all; he merely disappeared.

- - -

A nice reflection on the mystical meaning of the ascension (by Thomas Keating) can be found through the link below:
- http://www.centeringprayer.com/heart/heart13.htm

quote:

The grace of the ascension offers a still more incredible union, a more entrancing invitation to unbounded life and truth. This is the invitation to enter into the Cosmic Christ-into his divine person, the Word of God, who has always been present in the world. And he has always been present in a saving way because of God's foreknowledge of his incarnation, death, and resurrection. Christ is "the light that enlightens everyone" (John 1:9) - the God who is secretly at work in the most unexpected, surprising, and hidden ways. This is the Christ who has disappeared in his ascension beyond the clouds, not into some geographical location, but into the heart of all creation.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] ...what do you think happened to Jesus with his ascension? You speak of him departing, but that's not it at all...

[/qb]

Thanks Phil, your comments and that link put a whole other spin on the ascension of Jesus... and by extension, on his return on the Day of the Lord -- Keating says, that is when all will see what already is. It may take me a while to assimilate that interpretation. It is, for me, a new level of seeing.

So what happened to his body, did it simply "expand into eternity. I don't understand...