"In order to control, automatic thoughts appear to be at your service."

Jan Cox

wc,
I am new to this forum. in my circuitous efforts to understand how discussion work i saw your thoughts on the peresent moment and internal dialougue. For some reason I began to think of
a book called ABANDONMENT TO DIVINE PROVIDENCE--
Jeanne Pierre de Caussade. He talks of abandonment to the present moment and how we are always searching for ' secret ways of belonging to God' and that the task is always obvious, always in front of us. A kind of active contemplation. Martha.
I found myself thinking about emmanence and immanence. And , surprisingly , as I scrolled down
I foung Michael's thoughts on this same. My first
message went to Michael on Hildegarde(PM). I am all out of sequence! Meandering along.
Maria

Here's the book, Self Abandonment to Divine Providence, that Maria was referring to. Looks interesting:

quote:

Reviewer: "jedghill": God's omnipresence is taken for granted by all Christians. But it is so easy to assume this applies merely to the physical and material world. If He is omnipresent in a physical sense, then He must also be present in every circumstance we experience our lives, no matter how small. Thus, we can experience God just by yielding to what life brings. DeCaussade, in this beautiful book (I am in my third reading), has introduced me to this "new" way of experiencing God: I now "see" Him everywhere. This view of God brings great comfort and assurance. I find myself struggling less with life, accepting things that I would once have found distasteful, and discovering many new blessings from God. If you long for a more settled life you will gain much from this book.

Phil said: I spend lots of time like this, and, yes, it does tend to intensify the K -- not always unpleasantly for me, however. Years ago I wondered how I could know what to do in such a state -- without reflecting, judging, etc. But considering that outside this state people are acting one way and thinking in a different direction, it follows that the "knowing" that leads to action need not have anything to do with reflective thinking. There seems to be a kind of thinking, at times, as though "from the top" of the head -- almost like one is the recipient of thought from a guide (perhaps one's angel, or the Holy Spirit). Of course, one can choose to think, reflect, etc. any time, but it's an abolutely pointless and unproductive activity most of the time. Don't get me wrong - - there are times when reflecting and "thinking things through" is necessary, if for no other reason than jogging the mind loose to explore new possibilities. But one comes to know when it's time to do that, and when it's a total waste of time and energy.

I strongly second the motion. That could have been written by me (except for the reference to "K", of which I know nothing).

Brad, surely you know the K. . . potassium. We're talking about high potassium levels, here.

----

Welcome, Maria. Abandonment-- by de Caussade is one of my all-time favorite spiritual readings; I pretty much insist that all my spiritual directees read it at some time. It does indeed point to a simple contemplative spirituality without eschewing the importance of the active, foundational work that makes this possible.

I know the book is still for sale through Amazon and other outlets, but it's also public-domain and available here . I have a copy on my Palm Zire 71 and have enjoyed its ready-availability in that format.
- btw, that ccel.org site is a treasure-trove of classical wisdom.

Maria and others:

As for the internal dialogue, and how abandonment to Divine Providence is possible in the present moment, I would hold out a distinction. What I'm referring to on this thread, which can go in different directions, is how the internal dialogue is personalized, whether in religious flavor or not. We are very seldom not in its grip, especially when we comment to ourselves how we know what it is.

You had this coming. You know that.

Something automatic is happening all the time, and at the physical level we pay little attention to it, expecting the body to do what it does. At the mental level we think there is a suspension of this automaticity, and attribute that to "self," when in fact the "self" is dependent upon the running commentary for which there is little control over, in spite of all the personal meaning it feels it is in charge of. But notice that personal meaning, however you understand that, requires constant updating, and that this constant updating seems to be purposeful, as in believing you are intentionally in charge of that project, whereas it happens just as automatically as the bodily functions.

As soon as we reference experience, we are no longer in the present moment, but drawn in to personalizing the internal dialogue as our own commentary, thinking we are free and not standing in the sleeping q. Having an argument about it is doing the same thing i.e, commenting on the internal dialogue we're not in control of in order to believe we are. Dress that up with religious faith, and you'll really get offended. Some folks will kill over it; but that's just the externalization of what we do in our heads when a threatening notion finds an opening.

At the mental level we think there is a suspension of this automaticity, and attribute that to "self," when in fact the "self" is dependent upon the running commentary for which there is little control over, in spite of all the personal meaning it feels it is in charge of.

That certainly has the ring of truth to it, at least to my ears, WC. If you�re trying to tell us not to associate the feelings or images we have running around in our heads with our true self, I think you may be right. It might be like trying to ascertain the model of car you are driving (Ford or Chevy) by the pattern of bugs that get squashed on the windshield.

We we talk to ourselves, are we really? Since we have little actual control over the impulses of the internal dialogue, where is the self in what constitutes most of both waking and sleeping consciousness?

Controversy/mental conflict is the life-blood of the I.D., just as passion fuels the body's activity. Passion is used by the mind to further fuel the I.D.

The more personal commentary we have about life, the more we suffer.

We don't intentionally generate the vast majority of thoughts, anymore than we produce the body's passions.

At the physical level, most things are accomplished automatically. The body doesn't need our consultation; neither does the mind, although when identified with the I.D. we think certainly think so.

Two areas of possible freedom, where the I.D. can be experienced as automatic, and how limited, dramatized personal meaning really isn't so personal after all:

Awareness: watch/listen to the I.D. Watch/listen to it as you become it, either monologuing or dialoguing. When we monologue, we think we are talking to ourself, but as Jan Cox points out, we can never catch the moment when the monologue begins, only once it has started; hence, if we were its instigators/authors, there wouldn't be this gap between apparent wakefulness and recognizing our sleep walking. IOW, the self we think we are talking to, and that seems to be answering back, is only the ID doing what it does automatically.

Chest-solar plexis-abdomen: these areas produce the vast amount of the body's serotonin and dopamine. Sensing into these areas with relaxed attention activates the vagus nerve, utilizing more of this "second brain" in its relationship with the limbic system and higher cortical functions.

Chest-solar plexis-abdomen: these areas produce the vast amount of the body's serotonin and dopamine. Sensing into these areas with relaxed attention activates the vagus nerve, utilizing more of this "second brain" in its relationship with the limbic system and higher cortical functions.

Would a tightening in this area signal a resistance of some sort, WC?

We all have resistances like that, and so bringing these bodily contractions into awareness while letting go of/watching/listening to the ID is about all we can do. Doing that some every day, gently without strain, is a good habit to develop.

Phil's Special K!

Must be nice to know a little graphic arts, eh?

- - -

from w.c.: We we talk to ourselves, are we really? Since we have little actual control over the impulses of the internal dialogue, where is the self in what constitutes most of both waking and sleeping consciousness?

The non-reflecting aspect of the Self is observing, else how could we know that we have been listening to inner dialogue, or even asleep, for that matter. The intentional aspect of the Self moves into some form of interaction, creating subject-object relationships even with our thoughts. Meanwhile, the other apsect observes the interaction and lives always in the present moment. That's how I understand all this, at least.

maria,

Welcome! I found a copy about six years ago in a
musty old Episcopal library, and my views on spirituality have never been the same. I kept reading in the AA Big Book about "abandon yourself to God as you understand God," so the title just jumped right out at me. I had no idea that some Jesuit had worked out a precise method to accomplish
this. The other book around that time which was a strong influence was The Way of a Pilgrim. I wish
sometimes that I never saw that book, as I got carried away with the Jesus Prayer and nearly lost
my marbles, if I ever had them to begin with.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

I would question whether it is the intentional aspect of the Self that "moves into some form of interaction," especially when it comes to the ID. If it were so, we'd be readily able to notice when we're entering the I.D., collapsing into the tendency of monologue; however, as Jan Cox points out, we never notice until the deed is done, and then, as you say, some folks notice the ID for what it is, which implies the Self you are describing. But most of the time we don't notice, and assume that the monologue, and its audience, are "self," or "self-other," when in fact they are all automated productions of the ID using up passion to keep itself intact.

If self and consciousness were closely related, we'd all know what our next thoughts are going to be.

Self and consciousness are indeed closely related, w.c. Try conceiving a Self without consciousness.

But your point about this in reference to ID is well-taken. I was meaning to refer more to Self becoming "involved" in ID, and that would be an instance of Self relating to ID as an object of its awareness. I hear you pointing out that, for many people, they interpret ID as originating in Self, and I agree that that's not so, and I think you've been clear in demonstrating this.

Through presence, and the larger Presence of Christ, we can listen/watch/allow/welcome/let go of the internal dialogue and the passions of the body, since both arise from the polarized character of fallen human consciousness. This watching/listening/holding, without becoming identified with, is the capacity of Self seated within the heart, where Yin and Yang find their unity hidden in the indwelling Christ.

The polarized energies are the activity of the the ida and pingala nadis, which are experienced as passion and internal dialouge. The Self can listen and sense these activities without collapsing its attention into their allurements (distortions because they are incomplete) because its root is in the heart where ida and pingala join the sushumna, the penetrating channel where passion-based internal dialogue is alchemized. Without passion there is no internal dialogue; but those who repress passion, rather than allowing its transformation, have the most restless minds of all; hence, when the grace of contemplation is given, hours or days later one notices the activity of the ida and pingala intensified, as these energies must come into conscious awareness before enterning the sushumna for entry into the heart. The work of the Self in relation to Christ is to watch/listen/allow/welcome these energies so they can be magnetized through presence/Presence into the sushumna. When we collapse into these energies we collapse conscious presence, lose touch with Presence, and the hidden presence of those polarized energies has nothing to resonate with.

But the Self cannot be fully known without reception of transcendental Divine Presence, since this is the source of the sushumna's function, where the Self is realized/actualized in the heart as compassion, the human being's ultimate witnessing presence of suffering/longing.

The polarized energies of the ida and pingala sustain the manifest, fallen world, or our experience of it, which is continually a struggle within passion and internal dialogue. Passion and internal dialogue are really the only descriptions of what it is like to live in the world asleep, giving rise to all the forms of pain, pleasure and suffering we know. The internal dialogue is automatic, or the world wouldn't exist in its talk-oriented form, any more than the perpetuation of the species would be possible without unconscious, instinctual passion. All forms of cultural discourse - science, technology and art arise from the automated internal dialogue and the attempt to find meaning within its polarity, and since they are expressions of polarity and the fallen, created order itself, cannot be completed. Actually, the internal dialogue continually draws us into the trance-state to maintain our own survival agenda. We are left trying to resolve the internal dialogue via the internal dialogue - without realizing our futility.

It is more noticeable with passion . . . our desire for union, and the attempt to accomplish this through creation, leaving us with an existential crisis that is the outcome of ida and pingala energies having not yet merged in the sushumna. The internal dialogue is characterized by one side critcizing the other, making comparisons, blaming, seeking meaning in stories, and in every case drawing upon passion for its fuel in these dramas, the same passion that men and women have never been able to satisfy through sex or offspring; it is minimally necessary for the phenomenal world to exist, but one cannot find in that exchange of energies the path to the center, since the presence necessary to abide them and hold the space for their alchemy also requires surrender of the will to Presence, the grace of saints and God. Nevertheless, these polarized desires have presence inside them, although without at least some conscious presence all we can know of them is their projected forms. So when we surrender our will to God consciously, these desires are awakened as aspects of the subconscious will needing surrender as well.

In moments we may experience how the passions, and the energy of the ID, are embedded in presence, just as the present moment is always before us in its radiance, intimating its greater, Eternal Source. These are epiphanies, but they don't stablize the passions, or make us more compassionate, mature people. We spend far more energy seeking pleasure in the polarized world than in paying attention to the work of presence and the grace of Presence; this is the force of the ID and the passions, where perpetuating the minimal forms of culture and family are indispensible.

But ida and pingala know sushumna, and they can only rest when brought there through grace and effort. For instance, the desire for sex will increase as grace permeates the body, further activating the longing for heart alchemy, requring us to develop enough conscious presence to hold them, just as we are held in Presence. But once they touch the heart, even a taste is enough to begin trusting their inherent goodness. The fiercest desire is quenched when it reaches the heart/sushumna, where union of the passions is acheived, and the ID merges in the radiance of the present moment.

Those are some pretty deep reflections, w.c., drawn in large part from self-observation, I'd guess. I follow, for the most part, only I'd like to inquire more into a few of your points.

The polarized energies are the activity of the the ida and pingala nadis, which are experienced as passion and internal dialouge.

How did you make that connection with ida and pingala? Is there some experiential connect, or did you just shift into a yogic interpretive paradigm, here?

The work of the Self in relation to Christ is to watch/listen/allow/welcome these energies so they can be magnetized through presence/Presence into the sushumna. When we collapse into these energies we collapse conscious presence, lose touch with Presence, and the hidden presence of those polarized energies has nothing to resonate with.

I like this very much, as it rings true to experience (except I can't say I have any experience I can point to that indicates sushuma -- central energy channel, for thos who wonder what this means).

All forms of cultural discourse - science, technology and art arise from the automated internal dialogue and the attempt to find meaning within its polarity, and since they are expressions of polarity and the fallen, created order itself, cannot be completed.

I'm not sure I agree, here, as you seem to be suggesting that without ID/brokenness, there would be no human culture. I can see that much art, for example, is an attempt to bridge the kinds of polarities you're referring to, but the human mind/spirit as I understand it is fundamentally open to understanding all truth. IOW, curiosity and the ongoing attempt to meet our needs better and better would create culture, science, music, etc. One does not lose interest in these as one is healed, and so one can project that in a redeemed culture, individuals continue to be interested in learning, understanding, growing, etc.

Again . . . lots of deep, mature insight, here. Thanks.

There have been times in meditation, and in Focusing and Sedona release work, when the two sides of a conflict, held in presence, merge/dissolve into the central channel, often in the chest, but also elsewhere. On some occasions it very much seems to be the central channel, but this could either be the sushumna or another nadi. When it yields pure peace, I sense it is the sushumna.

As for cultural discourse reflecting the fallen nature of man, and the resulting ID and disordered passions, one would probably have to look at the lives of saints for some glimpse of what would arise as far as cocreative efforts are concerned. But these souls are so few, and blend in with the common lot, it's hard to tell. Nevertheless, most art, science and technology is an attempt to arrest one pole against the other in the midst of an ongoing trance-state, which is no criticism, but just how the world of duality functions.

Other spiritual writers on the same subject of abandonment to the Divine Will/living in the here and now are:
(see google)
St. Jure
St. de la Colombière
Brother Lawrence
St. A. de Liguori
St. Francis of Sales
St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Luisa Picaretta
and many others

It is a crucial topic and I have been strengthened a lot in my pain last week by
http://openlibrary.org/b/OL18025400M/Holy_abandonment

in Dutch.

Vital lehodey was abbot of the monastery in Bricquebec France at the beginning of the 20th century. he wrote 3 classic books: on the Divine Liturgy, one on Prayer and a third book on 'Le Saint Abandon'.

Friends, this is stuff to read! And quite something else than say Eckhart Tolle and other popular writers!
This balance between the Righteousness of God ( who speaks of this today?) and His' Mercy...
This helpfull elaboration on the Divine Will in different situations!
He especially builds on Francis of Sales and Alphonsus de Liguori...
A must read! I give my whole library for the Bible and this book.

Fred