" . . . is picturing Ann Coulter in tight black leather a genitalized or non-genitalized pleasure?"


For conservatives, most likely the former. Liberals would just feel self-abasement for such an unconscienable, post-election slip of the libido. I mean, their still prostrate over the Ohio election ballots. Ya' think they've got time to oogle conservative girly mags?

I've followed it via email (I get the posts that way as well) and think it's probably the most incisive and depthful exploration of this topic I've come across anywhere.

We all, I'm sure, thank you for that praise, Phil.

This discussion seems to be deteriorating!

Yeah, I blame myself but it was WC who sorta started it. But I�m pretty sure (at least for me) it's merely a sign that instead of continuing to yap I ought to just be quiet for a while in order to integrate what's been said here. My mind really does feel like it's been hit with ten thousand volts, and the last couple days I've been in a bit of a daze. I guess picturing Ann Coulter like that can do that.

I might listen for a while until I snap out of whatever I'm in.

There is a story about Saint Francis, who had mastered the ID by this time, entering the camp of the Sultan on a peacemaking mission during the Crusade to liberate the Holy Land. His charm won over the Sultan completely, and he was invited to spend the evening with a hot looking Arab babe in a
black leather Ann Coulter outfit.

He replied, "Of course, after I finish what I am doing here, I will come up to join you." Needless to say, this created quite a scandal among the brothers, who could not believe their ears.

Francis went upstairs and joined the woman, who proceeded to remove her leather and lacy things...
Francis went to the fire grate and lay down upon it, remaining unburned. He said, "I'll be glad to come and join you in your bed, if you will first come and join me in this bed."

What is a girl to do in such a situation. She did
the only thing she could do. She joined the Poor Clares and became a great Franciscan nun.

ID=mm <*)))))><

Sheesh, I liked her better when she was wearing the leather and lacy things, MM.

Fine diddy, BTW.

Back to the topic . . . . . . .

Life's polarity is experienced in the head as talk, and in the body as passion.

Jan Cox speaks of feeling the flow of life, and noticing how it makes us talk to ourselves. And we mostly talk to "ourselves" without consent, but think we actually started or finished a particular "episode" of the I.D. We reconstruct this after the case, never catching it right as the worm is threaded on the hook.

Now, instigating such an episode might show us something, if nothing else other than the different energies involved, or the difference between "mind" and "Life." There might be some breathing room experienced through a more deliberate attempt.

Via the I.D., our discontents are made to seem something other than life itself, a kind of intruder to banish or deport.

"Hey, quit sneaking across the border, or I'll have to put up a fence! . . . Wait, we already have one of those."

"Jan Cox speaks of feeling the flow of life, and noticing how it makes us talk to ourselves. And we mostly talk to "ourselves" without consent, but think we actually started or finished a particular "episode" of the I.D. We reconstruct this after the case, never catching it right as the worm is threaded on the hook."

Note: the I.D. induced-dream one remains in when commenting on the time lag itself! And so on and so on . . . .

From a certain point-of-view, there are no maps re: true novelty in awareness . . . any disclosed means for it has already run its course, and survives only as a consensus hallucination of the I.D. driven masses.


. . . . wondering openly while sensing inside the brain and body, without having a known location to start or arrive. Is not having a known location possible? Would we know it were it really novel?

Good stuff!
Life's polarity is experienced in the head as talk, and in the body as passion. Hmmm . . .

- - -

To add another twist, I'm pretty sure that the charismatic gift of "speaking in tongues" (glossalalia) is instrumental in "managing" the energies that contribute to ID. It seems that no sooner does my mind begin to fill with what I call "involuntary thinking" (same as ID), then this gift emerges spontaneously. Giving utterance under one's breath sweeps it away, and (here's the new insight), fills the awareness with unintelligible (but pleasant) sounds that cannot be seized upon to form judgmental reinforcements. Instead, the entire flow within is re-directed, and, after awhile, the mind is calmed.

Wonderful gift!

If the present moment is embodied as new neural ground, or previously unencountered novelty, then tolerating uncertainty, allowing it to run its course, and staying awake to it, might . . . . . but we always duck into the nearest bar for a familiar drink.

Re: the I.D. and any freedom that isn't a trance-state, one can only really watch for monologue, since dialogue is already the trance and any claim to novelty or the present moment at that point is being had. Monologue is the part always occuring, with a split-second opening where one can answer the phone or not, as Jan Cox puts it. But we never notice when we answer, since the self and the I.D., from this POV, are no different.

Redirecting the ID toward something higher seems wise to me, and that's perhaps why there are so many
prayer books and devotionals. Sometimes this is the only way for me to regain a sane attitude when the ID is beginning to run the show, rather than being
Spirit-directed.

I'm not tounge talking like I used to, but it is
a valid gift, IMHO, and relief in times of stress
or when the deepest groanings are ineffable.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Romans 8:26

Whether the groanings take place audibly or on the inside is probably secondary. It is a wonderful gift!

Yesterday is a cancelled check and tomorrow is a promisory note. Today is a gift, which is why we call it the PRESENT

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

I'm not tounge talking like I used to, but it is a valid gift,

I shall refrain from making any Ann Coulter references. You were saying, MM?

Whether the groanings take place audibly or on the inside is probably secondary.

Now STOP that. I�m trying to be serious here and talk about some important stuff. Now try again, please.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Romans 8:26

[Another sort of tangential catapult off a comment, but that�s the way I do things.] We�re attracted to other people (sexually or otherwise) because we often see or sense the radiant joy for life that the other has. It may or may not be that we are lacking such joy. It may be that the other (particularly if of the opposite sex) has a different and complimentary type of joy that is somewhat foreign to our sex. Now, of course, all you wise shrinks out there (and correctly so) warn us not to try to live life through another person. We must have our own stuff going on. Life is sharing what we have with another or else it�s just a bit to codependent to be called a healthy relationship.

That�s the ideal. Most of us fall short. Most of us are looking for the spark of life in the other to help spark our own life, or at least rekindle that flame we once had. I would imagine that when looking to the divine that the same rules apply: If we wish for all to flow from the Other then we�re getting into a codependent relationship. But we do allow other humans to completely lean on us and draw strength from us in moments of need. So too would a God and He could probably stand far more of that than a human could.

I suppose it is awareness that brings me to these thoughts (there�s the merciful tie-in to the thread). I may not always look like I am on my knees and groveling but I can assure you that I have some holes worn in my denim. Your answers to such existential (and awareness�Ha!) problems is probably different than mine but I suspect that many of us do share the same problems�inside of marriage or out, regarding our professions or lack of same, regarding physical ailments or mental ailments, etc., etc,

The paradox of present moment awareness, as far as I�m concerned, is that we sometimes have so much chaos, confusion, and uncertainty in our lives � in the present moment � that to focus there even further seems sheer lunacy if not a slight case of sadism. Common sense says that we need to escape from this present moment and the #1 solution by popular consent is addiction. And it works! Too bad, though, that it works only short-term at best.

Surely that "gentle awareness" (as I call it�one could also call it true present moment awareness) is an awareness of the present that doesn�t simply amplify the pains and sufferings we�re going through. God knows we do not need to look at these things any closer, to make them more vivid. Any kind of useful awareness is going to have to bring a healthy dose of non-judgmentalism with it. Frankly, it would be ideal if we could be HNIL (Here now in love) from the get-go, but I sort of see that as a stage a bit further down the line. One stage is just "Here now not hating yourself" or "Here now not making things worse." Bringing non-judgment into the present moment can help but it is helpful primarily (perhaps only) as a tool that allows us to take a different look at ourselves and others. I think that�s something essential that we need to do in order to affect positive change and to escape fixed (and incorrect) notions of ourselves. But one of the hardest things for any human being to do is to see out of the back of our heads. That, I think, describes just how hard it can be to get a different perspective on our lives. Usually this different perspective comes through the criticism of others (and this can be helpful if we are willing to honestly listen) but few and far between is the friend who is both frank AND kind. If the world were full of people like that then present moment awareness might be a piece of cake.

Non-judgementalism . . . . now this usually passes with broad recognition as a virtue, since it suggests certain respectful behaviors toward one another. And, of course, there is the intentional part that stirs the heart and quickens the mind to our often casual disregard of others. But unless our lives are being physically threatened, or our self-image being tarnished by those we'd like to tarnish first, we agree non-judgementalism is mostly within reach. So this inquiry, as I see it, isn't about contrasting judgementalism and discernment, or seeking their applications in the world at large, but noting how thought works in the head beyond our usually sleepy-eyed acknowledgements. So at the level of I.D., can we be aware of how judgementalism arises? Because we assume we are the keepers of our minds, we might miss the distinction. So to test the assumption of being the owner, or even the landlord, of our own thoughts, we must at least make a serious attempt to stop the I.D., just to get the flavor of its automaticity.

I suggest this exploration by Jan Cox to rudely shake up the dinner guests (shaken to awaken, but they might be too drunk for that; however, we're all used to proping them up and making them look respectible through the post card window):

http://www.jancox.com/Daily_Fr...Daily_Fresh_News.htm

ROTFL again. I saw Roseanne Barre (who used to live just north of here) before she was on television. I was bartender in a lounge where they had amateur night. One of her early jokes:

"Yeah, I dated a Christian guy once. I got all excited when he talked about the second coming and the gift of tounges." -groans from audience

I was looking at Karl Barth's classic "Romans" and realized that I forgot the next verse. 8:27

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

God even does the praying for me. Too good 2b true!

I have some scriptures about refraining from foolish and salacious jokes, but I'll spare you....

caritas,

<*)))))><

ROTFL again. I saw Roseanne Barre (who used to live just north of here) before she was on television. I was bartender in a lounge where they had amateur night. One of her early jokes:

If THAT wasn't a sign to clean up my act, I don't know what would be. I'm reminding people of Roseanne.

I suggest this exploration by Jan Cox

WC, I understood some of that but not all of it. I think he (she?) made a number of very good points.

So at the level of I.D., can we be aware of how judgementalism arises?

Obviously we have the built-in mechanism for making judgments and for using the "idle time" of our brains for hashing over past events. But I might, for example, critique a movie I just watched and do so lovingly. I might also do so caustically. Criticism (self or otherwise) can be done matter-of-factly with little or no acrimony or it can be quite spiteful. Criticism itself could plausibly be inherently neutral but not why we dish it out or how we dish it out. I think that much of the type of criticism (whether part of I.D. or otherwise) that we consider harmful is they type of criticism whose purpose is to raise ourselves by trying to lower somebody else. It can also be a way to vent hostility and aggression or to reinforce dominance.

And although critical I.D. could be nothing more than using the idle time of our brains to do problem solving, one needs to ask honestly just how much of that I.D. ever gets around to actually solving any problems and, in fact, how much of the thinking is even rational enough to be considered part of a legitimate problem solving process. That's when I think we come to realize that we have these little pre-recorded tapes running in our heads. In the extreme, they seem to serve no useful purpose. They are merely freeloaders, parasites.

As for Jan Cox, it's good to just let what he says bump around on the inside, without much of an attempt to understand, since that would most likely involve collapsing into the I.D. His Daily News usually surprises me, evokes some humor, but is also frightening at times, as the I.D. is one of our most cherished forms of comfort. Criticim is one of the ways he characterizes the I.D. - driven mind, and it is hard to find many exceptions to this.

I share Phil and MM's view of contemplative prayer as suspending the I.D., but my interest here is just in wondering about openings to fresh awareness during the day's routine. Of course, some folks may be recollected enough that contemplation extends throughout most activities. A blasphemous question: could prayer be merging, subtly, with monologue, where the dialogue is unnoticed? My experience is that contemplative silence is truly silence of the faculties, although it would be interesting to see to what extent I.D. is suspended on a daily basis.

But the I.D., for all its somnoletics (a word?), does serve to keep humanity moving on a standard course. Jan Cox has said that it is the flow of life for most humans, or how that flow structures civilization and its discontents. What is seldom seen in this survival flow is the "life of life," the wonder of there even being existence.

As for rationality, the I.D. is always the source of most arguments, even though an emerging rational position that seems the most solid is always its ongoing project, i.e, never completed, or indefensible. From this POV, uncertainty is a demon cast out again and again.

There are these advanced stages in Buddhism where you can just stare at one of these great mandalas and undestand all of the subtle themes involved.

What would it be like, I wonder, to gaze at an icon
and see only Christ, to think of nothing else? Heaven to me would be the absence of self-consciousness, with the presence of LOVE permeating.

I've been having alot of dreams lately, which is the ID working through all of this debris, but I have heard that when one finally goes "clear," even dreaming ceases, everything has been evacuated.

For now, the best thing I can think of is to invite Prince of Peace and Love into the ID with me to help clean it up.

Thomas Keating's psychology seems sound. Everything that messes with me is a variation on a theme of exaggerated need for security and survival, affection and esteem, power and control.
Even when I dream I am attempting to draw these things to myself, rather than accepting God's abundance. Worry is fear and therefore not from God. God himself is the answer to all my needs, but the ID will never admit it.

caritas,

<*)))))><

The energy of the I.D. could be understood as kundalini, in the way the body and mind function automatically, with our small, shifting islands of identity along for the ride. The I.D. is not only critical in its voice to sustain itself, but manifests in various attempts to create emotional stability where none really exists; hence its ceaseless activity even when physical survival is secure.

When those energies enter the central channel, the I.D. tends to collapse; this shift can be assisted with more wonder, where the polarity of passion in the body and talk in the head are seen with curiosity, but not identified with. The I.D. won't stop until its energy enters this central channel, where images and objects and needs dissolve into their source in the heart.

Can we listen to the I.D., its back and forth, and listen to our listening? If done with curiosity, there isn't hypervigilance or strain. We can sense/listen to our passions as well.

I like how in that last round of exchanges that WC really nailed the technical aspects of I.D. and MM nailed the spiritual.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_105441.html

Here's a link to a summary of some well-established research, which I've already referred to, showing that over 95% of serotonin is produced in the stomach and the intestines. This may be the physiological expression of "gut instinct," supporting the importance of internal awareness of the bodily intelligence for psychological health.

Passion is the natural, polarized oscillatioin or conversion of energy in the body. In the head, this conversion of energy is experienced as talk. Because we're not consciously aware of the automatic conversion of energy in our bodies, we think we author the talk in our heads. The more attention is drawn into the conversion, which we don't ever control, the more it seems we are doing the talking. But just try and stop the internal dialogue for more than a few moments, and you'll see how automated it really is. You might be able to shift the topics, but even that is only very temporarily under conscious control. Again, this lack of control is hardly any different than lacking control over involuntary bodily processes.

The body is dying, and the mind, both consciously and unconsciously, is absorbed with this continual loss of control; this is really all the mind is doing, at least as it is involved in generating meaning via the internal dialogue. Personal meaning is, in one form or another, the temporary, fleeting sense of having stabilized this unravelling. The mind being a mostly past-tense referential system insures, through memory, that we mostly feel in control of our perceptions of reality, giving us a post-mortem sense of continuity. Being asleep at the wheel is a collective form of comfort, and occurs in every domain of human experience.

The more bare attention is absorbed into stablizing personal meaning, the less awareness there is of presence, or the self-illuminating quality of the present moment, which is a partial opening to its transcendental Source.

But what happens when we experience emotional pain?

In these extended moments, attention is locked onto one pole or the other. Being on both sides of "talk" at the same time seems unbearable, and is mostly unthinkable, even though it is always true in the dying body. Somebody has to be right, and somebody else wrong, even if it's just in our own head (in fact, especially there). However, as satisfied, or justified as we may claim to be with the mental position taken, the body tenses, showing that we've only played into the mind's death throes over the body's ease with lack of control.

Only the body knows how to let go, and only bare, curious (intentional) attention to the painful sensations resonates with its primary intelligence. Unless we practice bringing attention to bodily sensation, this intelligence will remain mostly unconscious, and our spirituality will likely have a two dimensional quality i.e, deriving from "talk," where beliefs are born in an inherently unstable mental world.

For those who think the transcendental can communicate itself without our having to cultivate the body's hidden presence, the psychological impact of this truth shows not only the limits of the creaturely faculties, but the eventual need to care intentionally for the kundalini effects that arise from mystical encounters.

That's really deep stuff, w.c., including a few statements that seem uncharacteristically absolutistic. E.g.

Passion is the natural, polarized oscillatioin or conversion of energy in the body. In the head, this conversion of energy is experienced as talk.

I've thought that such inner talk (aka Inner Dialogue) is energy that can't be integrated by an organ system communicating with the more conscious centers of the brain for "help" -- i.e., intervention of the Ego. Granted the ongoing trickle . . . which just goes to show how much unintegrated energy there is that our organ systems cannot integrate.

Are we on the same page here?

Personal meaning is, in one form or another, the temporary, fleeting sense of having stabilized this unravelling. The mind being a mostly past-tense referential system insures, through memory, that we mostly feel in control of our perceptions of reality, giving us a post-mortem sense of continuity.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "mind," for, in my understanding, mind includes both psyche and spirit. As spirit, mind can affirm much more than a "fleeting" sense of meaning, and it can also open to the future in addition to the past. Mind-as-spirit also entails the non-reflective, non-intentional subject of awareness, which, more than memory, provides a sense of personal continuity. Memory isn't just a record of what happened, but how "I" was present to what happened. This subjective "I" is the thread that runs through one's experiences, giving us a sense of living what we may rightly call "my life."

You might be meaning to say something other than what I'm nuancing, here, so please clarify, as needed.

Phil:

I'd agree that I.D. in the brain is fed mostly via residual unintegrated energy throughout the body's organs, especially where kundalini is still mostly dormant and not increasing the body's conscious ability. Where K is dormant, the passions end up dramatized via stories/I.D., rather than alchemized through interactions between conscious attention and body awareness.

As for personal meaning, I mean the unstable variety we attempt to cull from the I.D., from the attempts at pleasure/pain management through self-talk, an almost non-stop ordeal in most nervous systems, which generates the illusion of being the author of the I.D. Most of the time I.D. is considered one's very self, and attention being wedded to it, this isn't a surprising impression. But again, I.D.'s automaticity is its biological driveness where K is dormant and perception isn't open to the world through the subtle body, whereas we usually think of it as a refuge of personal meaning we are in charge of - with little sense of how it runs us at the conscious level.

As for the continuity which memory gives, yes, without it we'd be lost at sea for sure. But "I" doesn't seem dependent upon it, or that has been my impression for the hours or even days the I.D. has receded. In those periods, there is absolutely nothing going on but the animate present moment . . . no memories except in the most utilitarian sense, no emotional dramas . . . mainly just the sense of how illusory the I.D. really is. Eventually there is an increase in K that overwhelms my relaxed attention, bringing an increased existential loneliness, and then the I.D. kicks in to siphon off the intensity.

When the existential and attending development affects arise, Focusing and Sedona release method help me relax with those raw, unintegrated energies, rather than try to tame them with identification to the I.D., which can't handle the energy and reacts to the intensity of passion in the body.

Lately I've also been more intentional about asking Jesus to enter the passions, to join me there as I pay attention to their yearnings through Focusing; this allows them to enter the heart more easily.

All very good, w.c. I wasn't suggesting that "I" was dependent on memory, only that it, more than memory, is what provides a sense of continuity and integration.

I know what you mean about the silent mind and living fully in the present. It seems, then, that the non-reflective aspect of consciousness has stepped forward, as it were, enabling a direct experience of consciousness/Self and that which comes into its presence via the senses. I spend lots of time like this, and, yes, it does tend to intensify the K -- not always unpleasantly for me, however. Years ago I wondered how I could know what to do in such a state -- without reflecting, judging, etc. But considering that outside this state people are acting one way and thinking in a different direction, it follows that the "knowing" that leads to action need not have anything to do with reflective thinking. There seems to be a kind of thinking, at times, as though "from the top" of the head -- almost like one is the recipient of thought from a guide (perhaps one's angel, or the Holy Spirit). Of course, one can choose to think, reflect, etc. any time, but it's an abolutely pointless and unproductive activity most of the time. Don't get me wrong - - there are times when reflecting and "thinking things through" is necessary, if for no other reason than jogging the mind loose to explore new possibilities. But one comes to know when it's time to do that, and when it's a total waste of time and energy.