One sure sign of how wedded we are to the I.D., how it is our very nature as humans (fallen?), is how desperate we get whenever our pet ideas fall into question/criticism, or there's any uncertainty about what we believe in. These are moments when the I.D. intensifies in almost obvious ways, where we spend long periods, even days, arguing to ourselves, making a case for one side or the other in our heads as though our brains were holding a sort of "Peoples' Court."

An inside-the-head People's Courts. That is just so amazingly "right on". I've got a friend, (a girl, but not a girlfriend) who is famous for an abundance of doubting self-talk following any kind of encounter with another human being almost no matter how uncontroversial. (If she's 8 on a scale of 10, I'm at least a 7). She and I would probably cause less wear-and-tear on ourselves and the world if we were just spontaneously rude and had no conscience about it whatsoever. It's doubtful either of us would delve into being serial killers even without the pangs of guilt. Instead we hold a "People's Court" in our heads and (I'm pretty sure this is true of both of us), we've never lost a case. We've always been found guilty.

I think such attributes show a desire to do good, to be right, to be like Hypocrites and "first do no harm". But it can also be self-indulgent, immodest, and rather tiring at times. But it's understandable among people who desire to do no harm but aren't quite confidant of their abilities of discernment and judgment.

"Yeah, that issue wasn't really deserving of all the muscle I gave it. But it's good practice for the more important things in life."

It seems that in order to be happy, productive, and to move forward one must be a bit calloused and insensitive. Too much sensitivity is incapacitating. And yet, are we not taught that the highest form of humanity is to be the one who is all-compassionate, all-feeling, and who is enlightened in a higher state of consciousness?

The nitty gritty of reality is probably best said in a truism I heard long ago: You eat life or life eats you. We survive only because of the death of something else. I'm not promoting torture or mutilation, but it seems inherent that life is about consuming others to a certain extent. (Many of us should know. We've certainly been there for the others often enough.) It's another one of those little odd things that we must hold in tension while avoiding tearing the wings off of butterflies or deciding to starve ourselves to death.

quote:

I wonder how you all would account for the recognition of "next steps," which seem to emerge on their own out of some kind of inner process. For example, when writing something, planning a talk, doing a slideshow, etc., I come to some kind of impasse. Forging ahead would produce garbage (not that I haven't done so ), but taking a break and waiting awhile, the "next step" seems to surface. It's not a consequence of deliberate engagement in ID, for, as Brad has noted, that hardly ever accomplishes anything. Nevertheless, it's as though some kind of inner process continues to work on the issue/problem, and, eventually, it emerges, sometimes amidst the other inner processes.

This attentiveness to "what's next" seems to me to be of critical importance in the spiritual life. We can pray for guidance here, and usually come to some clarity about it. Living in the present moment, attentive to "what's next," exercising the will in loving disposition . . . that's clearly the way to go, I believe. When ID is strong, however, it can sabotage all of the above.

The only, and I do mean the only reason, Phil, that I have any kind of spiritual life or philosophy or proto-religious orientation at all is because of the sense of connection I have with a knowledge outside myself. Modesty or false-modesty does not compel me to say so, only the evidence and logic of my own eyes and mind.

To access this knowledge, as you suggested, we need to let go a bit and show some patience. In order to do so we must, on some level, be showing a trust in reality, in destiny, in ourselves and/or in God. You pretty much described the process that's works for me � or often doesn't work in my case since, as you said, when ID is strong we sabotage that source of guidance or knowledge. [When one has had their ego and self chipped away at I think it becomes difficult to do the one thing we absolutely need to do � trust in something outside ourselves.]

I think a lot of our ID is fear-based as well as anger-based, and who among us ever consistently makes good decisions out of fear (or anger)? But when we "let go" and trust to something other than our ID then we are touching on some source of knowledge that surely has a better than even chance of being far less fear- or anger-based than our ID.

Anyway, that's sort of my rough paradigm for it.

----

Good luck with getting your power back. I hope you found a way to watch the NFL play-off games.

Regarding "next steps", self talk, and what to listen to and what not to listen to, I can only tell you that I am mostly deef (rhymes with "beef"), dumb and blind. But in considering such topics one is forced to think about what one would do or should do (and to sort of shy away or hush up what one is doing). In the case of destiny, purpose, Plans or paradigms, I think one needs -- well, if not exactly to shut up the ID -- to at least develop the sources outside of ID because I just don't think there is any way to shut it up completely, even just the "bad" stuff. I think one needs to pray for guidance and/or to keep one's self open to influences outside of one's direct knowledge, understanding and control. We always have veto power if we don't like the advice we get.

We have all these ideas in our head of who we are and who we ought to be, but wise advice is likely to be deaf to such concerns while our ID advice is likely to consider little else. I don't know what this "next step" process is but, at least for me, it feels like touching something most definitely and at least partially outside myself. Whether this is the case or not, I don't know. But I am developing (or am conscious of trying to develop) an attitude where I imagine (and it's not so great a leap) that I pour my shapeless, incoherent molten metal mass of me into someone else's mold for forming. And maybe I'm not metal but glass. The more battered we are the more we look for surety and security and imagine a metal paradigm but if something appears or is weak and fragile it doesn't mean it is not true or worthy of acquiring or emulating. It might be the opposite.

How awareness fits into all this, which is the main question at hand, I do not know. All I know is that some of the best times I've ever had did not seem to involve a particularly high degree of awareness, but neither was I asleep. It was those times for which time did not seem to exist. One tends to lose one's self. Perhaps I just don't understand mediation or higher awareness, but for me these things are interruptions on the normal flow of life. When life isn't flowing so well we need to search out a cure. But I'm wondering more and more these days if our insistence on awareness isn't overdone, and that is definitely not to say that I am a proponent for unconsciousness. Goodness knows I've seen awful behavior passed on unconsciously. I want no part of that. And perhaps I just can't help equating awareness with hyper-vigilance. The two are surely different � right? But I think, at least for me, awareness of the present moment means pleasantly getting lost in it and taking part in it so that I'm not even thinking about any such concepts as present moment.

I get some really poor advice when I'm in my head too much. Perhaps this is what happened to Soren
Kierkegaard:

http://www.ccel.org/k/kierkega...elections/moment.htm

All this advocating of brothels and disapproving of
Christian marriage. It seems he was terribly unhappy
and I wonder why he is regarded as a genius. Perhaps much of the world shares his intellectual
and spiritual dilemma. He might have lived longer
had he had the advantages of pennicillin.

He might have been better off with Buddhism:

http://presentmoment.blogspot.com/

http://www.meaningoflife.i12.com/Present.htm

http://www.mysticplanet.com/BE/BE-Kramer.htm

enjoy!
mm <*))))><

On the one hand, I kind of sympathize with Kierkegaard:

quote:

Now that I am to work in the present moment I must, alas! say farewell to thee, beloved remoteness, where there was no necessity to hurry, but always plenty of time, where I could wait for hours and days and weeks for the proper expression to occur to me; whereas now I must break with all such regards of tender love .

On the other, assuming your general characterization is a good one, MM:

All this advocating of brothels and disapproving of Christian marriage. It seems he was terribly unhappy
and I wonder why he is regarded as a genius. Perhaps much of the world shares his intellectual and spiritual dilemma. He might have lived longer had he had th e advantages of pennicillin.

LOL. I think a lot of that type of discord that you see being expressed is an attempt to hold onto the boundaries and territories of one's self. I think not too ungenerously I might say that the institutions of Christianity have, over the years, often tended to intrude on the individual*. Conversely, the true idea behind Christianity also leads to the tearing down of one's self, albeit a false self. So you see that it's easy for one (particularly a smart intellectual one) to sense the influences of the latter and to dismiss it in disgust as nothing more than the former.

It does take true bravery to question our own lives � even more to live them.

----

*But few and far between is the supposedly know-it-all socialist, leftist or liberal elite who bemoans the chipping away of the independent self by the intrusions of today's socialism. Go figure. I guess they can't hold two complex notions in their head at the same time. Hating Christianity leaves them precious little room to reason about much else.

Of all the nineteenth century philosophers, he at least has some faith in partial Christianity, and refers to it more than the others. While I'll agree
that the religion about Jesus has caused alot of trouble and the religion of Jesus has seldom been practiced at all, it's no wonder that they rail against the actual or apparent hypocricy which to an outside observer is readily seen as a type of con game. But they have little or no experience with the living reality.

I consider myself fortunate to have participated in several great reform movements of my generation, the recovery movement, the charismatic renewal and the mystical revival. Probably alot of stuffy "church of the frozen chosen" communities
in Kierkegaard's day. Harrrumph! I grew up in a somewhat stuffy Lutheran church where the living reality could be seen as at times remote and distant. One had the impression that God lived somewhere suspended in air ten feet above the alter.

This fellow has an admirable spirit and perhaps a true and abiding faith, but nice people being nice to terrorists has not been very effective the last
twenty five years or so, as w.c. has proved in a hundred posts.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0314-11.htm

If we could get the Christian left and right together again, it might resemble the religion of Jesus more than the religion about Jesus, but I see mystical theology as the vehicle for this.

One needs to examine their weltanshaung in the light of the "present moment."

caritas,

mm <*))))><

Back to what you were discussing originally, Thomas Keating uses the illustration of your conscious mind as a busy executive, with people calling on the phone and visiting the office. Meditation is how one escapes through a trap door below the desk, and above the phones are ringing and people are scrambling around the office saying, "Where is he, we thought we had our chance to get him this time!"
Meanwhile you are under the trapdoor and you know they are up there looking for you, but you keep their presence at bay.

Another analogy of Keating's which I like is sitting on the bank of a river, watching the boats go by. The trick is not to go and climb into the boats, go looking around down in the hold and wind up a mile downstream. Even if you do, it's ok, just gently bring your mind back to your sacred word or intention.

I do a sort of contemplation now (contemplation is meditation in Eastern religion) where I allow my mind to investigate a subject,(the visiters in the office or the cargo holds on the boats) and from time to time come back to ground.

The Dalai Lama says that after awhile you reach a point where it's not always about "spacing out"
but I still do that sometimes, and I believe my false self still balks at investigation and does not want to surrender or have light shining all
over, so it still jumps and hops around quite a bit. (monkey mind, grasshopper mind?)


grasshopper.com

Another analogy of Keating's which I like is sitting on the bank of a river, watching the boats go by. The trick is not to go and climb into the boats, go looking around down in the hold and wind up a mile downstream. Even if you do, it's ok, just gently bring your mind back to your sacred word or intention.

I like the sound of that, MM. I have such trouble being still and quiet that I've found that, instead of torturing myself (wisdom is sometimes knowing when to give up as far as I'm concerned), it is better for me to try and bring just a bit of the flavor of meditation to normal active life. I figure one can either get ten gallons worth of concentrated meditation in a thirty minute sitting or one can sort of dribble it out all day and get the same overall total effect.

In theory.

P.S.: Would that Keating trick work if I imagined a strip bar?

A few observations before retiring:

I spent the last 24 hrs with practically no full-blown moments of the I.D. This has happened before, but with one exception, only for hours at a time. As usual, there is a limit reached, and it seems to come in the form of a bodily sensibility, where the polarities of the I.D. managed in the head, where we hear those energies as "talk," are going on as well throughout the body as sensation, but particularly in the stomach and chest areas where most of our emotional responses register somatically/unconsciously. Not coincidentally, guess where over 90% of the body's serotonin is produced? What would guess in the head, but in keeping with our native gestures that suggest bodily location of emotional awareness, the answer is . . . in the stomach and the intestines. And I believe upwards of 60% of the body's dopamine is produced in the heart, with other organs involved as well.

Consciously, life seems to incorporate the emotions via the I.D., which is why there are no emotions, in the garden variety sense, without a story. But the body is participating in this process as well. If we don't access its intelligence, then there will obviously be some limited space for the alchemical transformation of emotions. I ran out of cerebral space for this process earlier today, and returned to my body with much gratitude. Perhaps there is more room in the grey matter for this than before, but the transformation of emotion via the frontal area of the body is intimately related.

Again, I'm saying that the I.D. is also taking place, via sensation, in the frontal area of the body, where polarized energies meet and interact via electromagnetic fields, neurohormones, etc . . . but without the verbal component of "talk" so easily observed in the head, we tend to treat the body's involvement as more symptomatic, when in fact it is crucial to the functioning of the limbic-neocortex interaction, where incoming, unconcious emotional signals pass through the body via the vegas nerve into the amygdala and other limbic anatomy, and then into the neocortex that must attenuate/organize these strong, often primitive signals into a tolerable, conscious experience. No surprise then, that experienced meditators register stronger activity in the left frontal cortex, showing an increased capacity to manage emotions, whereas those adults who suffered abuse as children, with no interventions, or just immature adolescents, show a diminished development in this area.

But the ability to ground emotional processing so that I.D. can be responded to with spacious awareness/attention begins with sensate awareness of the bodily intelligence, areas traditionally described as the chakra system. Without the body's involvement, its contribution via conscious attention to its sensations registering emotional response, these emotions seem to enter the brain and generate much more intensity in the I.D (the vocal, grey matter variety). Moreover, it is important to appreciate the qualities of awareness/presence the body imparts to emotions as they pass through the heart on their way to the head for a more final, conscious recognition.

An example I've shared before, on this thread and elswhere, illustrates the above . . . .

I'd been on a Focusing retreat for some days, and one evening, while being supported by a partner (who listens and supports the process with some guidance), encountered some very strong rage and sadness/despair in my stomach/abdominal area. Memories of my adolescense surfaced, with changes in sensation. The point in Focusing is basically to be with something just as it is, to keep it company and allow to emerge according to its own intelligence. As the images emerged, some of them primitive and hard to describe, there was the temptation to cling to them, since in their intimacy they can be nourishing/sources of unprecedented aliveness. IOW, forget the main course, the soup is fine, so we'll just eat and leave.

But I stayed with it and with it and with it, passing through images of a very lonely, and horney, adolescent boy. Had I been at home, well, I probably would have behaved like an adolescent boy, or man in need of female company. But what was really challenging was staying with the hurt that stirred so deeply in the lust, just being with it and trusting its intelligence. My parter, a female, was crucial to go the length with this; her presence created more soothing and containment than I probably could have accessed on my own. But she nevcr knew exactly what was going on, and I certainly didn't share the more explicit sexual feelings I was experiencing.

This keeping the emotions/sensations company went on for about 45 minutes, and then, as they kept easing and dissolving, there came a dual-sided image inside my body, below my navel, so concrete and dimensional, it was like a waking dream. The image was two-sided: on one side was the most lucious, alluring female I've ever seen, and on the other side, the facade of an ancient church. Just as soon as I saw/sensed this image, the two sides dissolved into each other, and an energy I can only describe as pure peace began filling my body - from genitals to crown, which took about 10-15 minutes. The energy was more like presence, since there was hardly any sensation in it. I've called it honey-like before, but beyond sweet because it was peace with no further need possible. And, I was wide-awake, not in a trance, and able to tell my partner what was happening.

My mind was clear as a whistle for several days afteward, and diffused throughout the body, with no I.D. possible, it seemed. Whatever arose in the mind was flowered in the body, and returned to this peace.

And so this would be my characterization of how the body can participate in the process of the present moment, since it is dying all the time and never afraid of its mortality, and innately wise to the alchemy leading to nondual peace, and receptive as the temple of the Holy Spirit to transcendental peace beyond creaturely knowledge.

Sounds like you're making good progress, WC. And man, since when did healing become so damn erotic! I can't wait for chapter two.

I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to share that,
and it might give others courage to do the same. We live in an amazing age, and if one does a web search
on "kundalini," one can find a couple of dozen stories which are similar. Only 150 years ago, you might get burned at the stake for something like that.

It is very beautiful, and I do believe that God does
become our lover. Mystics have used the Song of Solomon as an analaogy. John of the Cross speaks of the "living flame of love." I get alot of consolations and divine "hugs" and they keep me going. It's kind of like having sex with God. I had a gay man tell me twenty years ago that he was
dreaming of having sex with Jesus, and he felt ashamed about it. I told him that it was probably normal for him and not to worry about it. Since
God appeared to you in female form, I guess you have a normal heterosexual orientation.

One has to integrate the feminine somewhere around miiddle age (if male) and I have been working with it for the last five years, but have not yet had such a wonderful experience of it yet, and I envy
your experience. I can see now why Mary is so important, and I think I adopted Theresa of Avila
as my feminine archetype. A process...

Not sure if I have unloaded my unconscious back to adolescence yet, but fairly close now, methinketh.

Thanx again 4 sharing, w.c. (truly wonderous)

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

MM and Brad:

I'm glad the description makes sense. I guess the bottom line, for me, is allowing the body to participate directly in psychologcial healing, while doing some basic mindfulness pratice re: the I.D. The I.D. can't be stopped, but via the body's intelligence, and grace, can transform from polarity to non-dual awareness. The encouraging thing is that the healing is innate to the already existing energies we have, whatever form they are taking in the present moment, and however inadequate they may seem. In fact, a sense of inadequacy has been one of the real struggles for me, and just Focusing/being with that energy unfolds healing of shame in surprising ways. IOW, all our pains and distorted appetites are driven by a longing that is fundamentally good and self-correcting. Here are a few books/authors that have been helpful in that regard:

1) Pema Chodron;

2) Charlotte Joko Beck;

3) Ann Weiser Cornell;

4) Hale Dwoskin;


And I would add that simply learning/unlearning to play is crucial for a re-entry into present moment awareness. For serious adults carrying around a lot of baggage, I'd recommend Sand Tray therapy, which I've described in the thread "Playfulness."

Here are some disturbing wake-up calls to the present moment from the fellow I cited early on in this thread. Most of these "aphorisms" can be read as metaphors for the I.D. and the way life organizes our search for meaning via the I.D. as always caught in some form of "unfinished business," keeping us asleep at the wheel while supposedly enriched with meaning, but never quite enough.

http://www.jancox.com/00JansDailyFreshRealNews.htm

For my daily dose of humility I read a psychological
evaluation by a master's candidate from Israel on my
state of development on the Eriksonian stages of life development scale and I am very, very retarded in my growth. It's one thing to have the comfort of mystical grace in the present moment, and another thing entirely to grow up. I find it painfully em-bare-ass-ing doing so in public, but what choice do I have? Thanx again, Master Po!

mm <*)))))><

Long story short, it sounds like one needs to be weak and vulnerable in order for healing to take place (which should be not so surprising considering what our bodies intentionally do when we, say, catch a flu bug). Part of that openness to vulnerability is reflected by your willingness to intimately share what you're sharing and doing it on your own terms.

I'm not sure what to do with this information, if anything, but you're making a great case for using the full body (not just the mind) to sort through one's past traumas and imbalances. I'll try to become a better listener, although the image of myself is of being somewhat incorrigible.

We may differ on what the I.D. is doing, what it means, and what its proper function is, but it makes sense if it's there to help us incorporate emotions. It would also makes sense too then that it would be a supremely powerful tool for any type of a false self. What better way to reinforce false or pet notions of one's self then by running those little I.D. programs in our heads? What better way to keep us unconnected to our authentic selves then by running those little I.D. programs in our heads? I've had no profound changes over here on my end, but I do think since starting to discuss this topic that my self-talk has decreased. I also think now that a certain type of I.D. that I have from time to time, one that I experience at times as an almost rainman-like or autistically repetitious, is meant to block the incorporation of emotions via a "normal" I.D. and to reinforce whatever gummed-up notion of myself are in there.

If present moment awareness has a vital role to play in all this it might be to do no more than to act as a sort of referee or overseer and to throw a flag when necessary: "Illegal blocking of integration of emotions. That'll be five minutes of meditation. Automatic first down."

People sit around in twelve step groups and speak of the committee. (voices in the head) I believe that sick people tend to have more and faster thoughts than the healthy. Remember the Doors? "There's a killer on the road, his brain is squirming like a toad." The devil loves rock music. David Hawkins says that people "go weak" with heavey metal music.
Baroque music. about 60 beats per minute, makes people strong.

Somone related a vision which they had about the armour arount their heart (chakra) breaking off in chunks. Remember Dr. Zhivago having the heart attack at the end of the movie. (Cause of death:
broken heart) Theresa of Avila had a vision of a cherubim standing beside her thrusting an arrow into her heart and putting chunks in and removing other chunks. This image speaks volumes.

Also what you said about the stomache, w.c. I have
a "gut feeling" about that. It is so. All the junk unloaded by the unconscious bringing that yukkie feeling. Thomas Keating calls it "psychic nausea."
Barf! Barf! Puke! Puke! Feeling much better now.


caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Good exchanges we're having here. It seems we agree that the I.D. has some major survival value, if mainly of the false self construct. However, as you both mention, when we do let go of the I.D., through watching it, sensing it, and even welcoming (The Sedona approach), it can ease, or at times intensify emotions if we're just becoming aware of its function after a long period in zombie land. What is befuddling is that any aspect of the mind, and any issue, pleasant or painful, can easily be co-opted by the I.D.

Today there were periods when I could watch the I.D. and it would ease, and at other times a vague rawness increased, quite uncomfortable in fact, and carrying a quality of loneliness. The I.D. keeps us from feeling how lonely we are; this seems to be one of its main functions.

With the loneliness I can turn my attention to its bodily expression of discomfort and hang out there, and there will be some easing, or even melting. This just takes practice, and is very simple to do, although other parts of the mind may object to attending to something painful so directly.

One huge piece of the human experience that I.D. functions to distort is how uncertain we can be, a kind of discontent that we are quick to fill up with deeper intellectual articulations. Nothing wrong about this, but there is a fundamental uncertainty we simply never overcome, and it is quite a discontent. The I.D. always leaves a hole in the fabric of our assurances, even as it functions to tie up loose ends. Jan Cox, whom I've cited links to, would probably say this is its actual design : always an unfinished business.

As I was dealing with some pretty raw sensations about a particular expression of uncertainty (job-related), and being with it in my body while not answering the monologue aspect of the I.D., or noticing when it was full blown I.D. (seems you never catch it until its already sucked you in), the rawness increased and it became clear how this is just the texture of life. There are personal versions of it where I get quite worked-up, but basically this rawness/uncertainty/discomfort is life itself, at least through my nervous system. With this awareness I let go, for a few moments, of struggling against life, which also seemed humorous.

Being out of control, fearing loss, having loss, losing friends, getting older, less attractive, fearing disapproval . . . all of these have a basic energy of discontent, and the body, which is always dying anyway, seems able to contain this far more than the habits of conscious attention suggest. There is no creativity without chaos, and chaos in the mind probably provokes the most desperation and tendency to resist; but while that may give us more control momentarily, the alivenss of the chaos is then out of reach.

The devil loves rock music. David Hawkins says that people "go weak" with heavey metal music. Baroque music. about 60 beats per minute, makes people strong.

Well, baroque music is okay, but I find it a little bit boring and, frankly, oppressive. I love classical piano concertos. I love Chopin and I love Mozart, but find Beethoven to be, again, oppressive and depressing. And if ANY form of music can make people go stark raving mad it has to be opera. But as for rock, I find even some of the loudest, most obnoxious rock songs to be extremely soothing. It almost induces a nice relaxing trance state. Ironically (and this is certainly not always the case), I find cacophony to be a better escape from the noise than silence.

I think Hawkins ought to go back to the drawing board.

However, as you both mention, when we do let go of the I.D., through watching it, sensing it, and even welcoming (The Sedona approach), it can ease, or at times intensify emotions if we're just becoming aware of its function after a long period in zombie land. What is befuddling is that any aspect of the mind, and any issue, pleasant or painful, can easily be co-opted by the I.D.

WC, I think I.D. that has become habitual and impulsive (much like mine often is) serves the function of perhaps holding us together so our minds don't venture into even worse thoughts. Without our fixed stars I think we would go stark raving mad in a millisecond. There are times when, through intensive thought and study, I've seen so many sides of so many different issues that my preconceptions were blown, my I.D. largely debunked, self-concepts were wavering, and the only fixed star I had was that everything was a mystery and I knew nothing. Clearly the adaptive value of believing SOMETHING, no matter how insanely irrational, can help us cope and just help us get through the day without implode or killing ourselves like the cat did with too much inquisitiveness.

One huge piece of the human experience that I.D. functions to distort is how uncertain we can be, a kind of discontent that we are quick to fill up with deeper intellectual articulations. Nothing wrong about this, but there is a fundamental uncertainty we simply never overcome, and it is quite a discontent. The I.D. always leaves a hole in the fabric of our assurances, even as it functions to tie up loose ends. Jan Cox, whom I've cited links to, would probably say this is its actual design : always an unfinished business.

Politically and socially we can see how destructive postmodernism can be. Deconstructing and destroying become not only a habit but a way of experiencing the world. Welcome to my world, more or less. Sure, I specialize in deconstructing the deconstructors (and hopefully doing a fairer and better job) but we're still in the same business more or less. I can analyze and understand but I can have a tough time relating to things other than analyzing them and trying to understand them (a survival trait, no doubt). Awareness, hell, that may be the one thing I don't have much trouble with. But awareness itself I don't think is the complete answer. It's just as important WHAT we're aware of, what we're focusing on. We can be like a Rainman and focus our attention so well on a telephone directory that we learn it by heart but can't cope with something as simple as an unfamiliar person walking into the room. Are focus ought not to be too sever or limited in scope, nor should it be frantically sweeping about broadly like a search light. I said a long time ago that a "gentle" awareness was the ticket and I still think this is so even though I may have not achieved it and may be incapable of it.

Being out of control, fearing loss, having loss, losing friends, getting older, less attractive, fearing disapproval . . . all of these have a basic energy of discontent, and the body, which is always dying anyway, seems able to contain this far more than the habits of conscious attention suggest.

Yeah, I think we've got some of the same "issues." Who doesn't if they're older than 30? I'm getting older, am getting less attractive, (I'm not losing friends because I don't particularly have that many), hair is starting to grow out of my ears, but tell you what, I'm not that afraid of dying. My mind senses, well, not an afterlife but more a continuity that I am a part of now and will be later on in some form. But all I'm looking for now is not to complete the parts I can't complete but to finally accept this and hopefully fall pillow-deep into a nice peace. And I want to sort through all the BS and crap that ain't mine (but is inside my head) and find out who the real me is.

Am I still on topic here? WC, don't be too lonely or too afraid 'cause I got enough of that kind of crapolla for the both of us.

Brad:

I reminded of the first time I received a massage. For a few moments at a time I could just enjoy the pleasure of it for its own sake . . . for my sake, and receive affection from another person, although just the non-genitalized physical pleasure was easier to let in than the actual affection at the time.

Awareness may seem to need a certain expression as long as the pleasure of simply being alive is abstract, unless there's an opening to wonder within awareness; otherwise, it's more like starring. You've related such moments re: your nephew, I recall. And so I notice in myself that the receiving aspect of awareness is often subtly missed. But this has changed via re-inhabiting my body. Now I can feel/taste/sense colors that I see for brief moments.

No wonder dogs like to stick their heads out the car window. What a delightful rush that must be.

My last girlfreind was a classically trained pianist
and when she played Chopin or Ravel it was very relaxing.

MM:

Between my "non-genitalized pleaure" and your former girlfriend pianist, we are surely testing Brad's restraint . . . . .

A test today for something outside the system:

Note any truly original thought

Note any truly novel perception


Clue: most thinking about either is the system working you over, in which originality and novelty are impossible.

Between my "non-genitalized pleaure" and your former girlfriend pianist, we are surely testing Brad's restraint . . . . .

Frankly, I'm not used to talking about "non-genitalized pleasure" with other guys, but I consider that my problem, not anybody else's. Just tell me, is picturing Ann Coulter in tight black leather a genitalized or non-genitalized pleasure? I'll eventually get the hang of this, no pun intended.

Note any truly original thought

Hmmm�does the above count?

This discussion seems to be deteriorating! I've followed it via email (I get the posts that way as well) and think it's probably the most incisive and depthful exploration of this topic I've come across anywhere. Ultimately, it raises questions concerning the nature of thoughts, not to mention their value. I'll be giving this more thought in the days ahead . . . or not.