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<w.c.>
posted
We tend to view ourselves immune from the worst aspects of suffering, whether an acute crisis or chronic mental and physical pain. Then a tragedy strikes, or illness gradually overcomes our best sense of self, and life is now dark and unromantic.

This thread is like some others, and presumes, of course, that somebody in inconsolable pain would be able to, or want to, write about it. That's a bit out-of-touch, or even romantic, to suggest one could observe such suffering with enough nobility to recommend some measure of comfort to others. Fortunately, we get hints along the way, moments of inconsolable pain, and these show us our spiritual need and our existential helplessness and need to let others love us in those sordid, shame-stricken wounds as we flounder without a sense of purpose or heading.

The affective ego certainly is a source of emotionally complicated suffering, which is why Jesus could surrender completely to His gruesome destiny, as He was Himself the source of faith, hope and love needed during our existential and Dark Night passages (they are different). And the saints surrender more easily, as the affective ego has been dismantled through these gifts of the Holy Spirit when and where human faculties are useless.

As I watch people die, and am able to be with them to some extent, there is less and less distance between the dying and the living. There never was, in fact, any real distance at all, as most of this impression is the work of the affective ego flailing to re-invent itself in the face of pain. Little wonder then that saints like Mother Teresa are able to immerse themselves in human despair without desparing.

But this thread isn't about admiring the saints, except as they cast some light for us along the way. But the way is dark and unromantic, with no maps or reference points except maybe some human company that holds the space for that to happen, and the Holy Spirit who is moving in ways we cannot perceive.

We belong to each other in horrible and blessed ways.
 
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w.c. wow, capital WOW and double wow!

"Somedays you are the bug and some days you are the windshield." -guy sitting next to me last night.

"We have to have somewhere we can go and say, 'I hurt.'" -guy sitting across from me last night.

About 25 guys in that mens group, and we have some really bizarre ways of expressing our 'selves'.

We speak to the issues of life and death and recovery from a hopeless state of mind and body.

Guys can be rough, too. Usually noone says, "there,
there, now." More frequently, you get ribbed and mocked and put down, but a strong bond remains and
I was thinking of the passage from Proverbs that says, "As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his freind."

It seems our psychic link is up and running again. Wink
 
Posts: 2559 | Registered: 14 June 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane his anxiety was overwhelming to the point that he sweated blood.

If I am not mistaken this account recorded by Luke, was the only account of Jesus sweating blood. Also, wasn't Luke a physician? I find that interesting because the sweating of blood is actually a very real condition known as hematohidrosis. Luke being somewhat familiar of the medical profession may be why he noted this account?

Then one must ask the question: Why was Jesus so nervous? I am sure he was dreading the great physical pain that he was about to endure. A horrible and painful execution.

I think the real agony was the spiritual pain he was about to face. The knowledge that he would soon bear the terrible trauma of taking the guilt of all of our sins upon him. He would be forsaken by the Father and go through hell itself for lost sinners.

To think he did this freely. He gave himself as a sacrifice. I am sure if he wanted he could have chosen to change his destiny. Maybe even call down the Angels to protect him. But he went like a lamb to the slaughter.

I hope I didn't stray to far off topic.

Reading your post brings feelings of the dimmer, less talked about, side of humanity.

Yes, we all must die. The word "death" puts a knot in the stomach of the toughest man. It is something we all must face. Eventually everyone we know, including ourselves, will cross that threshold. Yet, it is a topic most feel is best left alone.

It may well be that the ego wants us to suppress the thought of dying. Knowing one day that it itself will be the only thing that really dies.

The false-self wants to cling to an existence that never really was.

We have nothing to fear of death.
 
Posts: 470 | Location: Greensboro, NC | Registered: 05 February 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<w.c.>
posted
No, Eric, you aren't off topic, as this thread is really hard to participate in anyway.

As for death, the older I get, and the more I'm around the dying, the clearer it becomes that death is always happening. We call it aging, of course, and hope to do that gracefully, but as you say the reality is always lurking.

So while death itself may not be feared by some saints, I think most have a fear of both the event, which brings the unknown in some degree, and what the process will be leading us along that path.

The key seems to be to develop as much capacity for giving and receiving love as possible while we have time. Of course, one's death bed can be a place of conversion too, but best to get that underway now.
 
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How can one really describe inconsolable pain with a greater accuracy than Eric spoke of Jesus Christ's suffering on the Cross.

I was in the shadow of the Cross 10 years ago with agonies beyond comprehension. Like a fragile bird with a broken wing lay I at the feet of Jesus. I understood His words as He entered into death: "My soul is utmost sorrowful unto death". At the weakest state of my being, The Lord became my strength and power to overcome. He made my feet like hindsfeet putting me upon high places of God's Holy Mountain and healed my broken wing. He gave me a new life in and through Him.

No words can really describe this inconsolable pain, there are no words. My fellow brothers and sisters who overcame this pain through Christ sit together with me in silence with our hearts aflame with praises for God for His great Love.
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<Asher>
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I'm not sure if this has anything to do with this thread. I see that fragmented ego states are simply layers and we may experience one layer for days, weeks etc. and it will be painful. But can you move into that state where the "I" is witnessing the body? Where the body is simply a body in pain. This is not dissassociation as I once thought it was: the body can be contracted and simultaneously be in this state. Right? This is the beginning of some form of detachment.
This stepping back into that state "behind" the body is the beginning of healing as I understand it. It gives me hope. Otherwise, I would feel that I was going crazy. I see it as a/the light at the end of this long tunnel of self with all its fixations, distortions and deceptions. The self is not lost, it just goes on, but it goes on optimally in this state. The currents align themselves and the body simply does what it has to. If it suffers than there is still this awareness behind. This is how I am beginning to deal with intense pain. At least there is this knowledge that there is an end, and that there is no turning back.

Advaita used to seem dissassociative to me. Now I understand that the body can be completely f----- up and another part can be in this state, which is our "true" state, as far as I'm concerned. The body just does what it does now. If it suffers or the currents are stuck, it is better that we are not involved in the process. The currents then naturally take care of themselves. It sounds so bloody simply, but I realize it isn't.
 
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<w.c.>
posted
Asher:

I'll probably follow-up to your post more on the "Healing the False Self" thread, but that's not to say what your saying is misplaced here.

Briefly, I'd say that the "I," through its endowement of natural grace, can be with most pain for periods without collapsing. But it depends upon whether or not the pain has a significant developmental aspect. When developmental roots are weak, then the "I" is more easily co-opted by the false self personality, and so stable attention can become mechanical in response to the intimate aspects of the arising pain, or just lose strength altogether. The key here, imo, is that most emotional pain is relational in nature, whereas the false self is anti-relational. So if you have significant pain naturally inclined to the other's intimate presence, attention that is so easily co-opted by the false self is probably going to result in a withdrawal or distortion or disassociation of some kind, which is the survival aim of the FS system.
 
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<w.c.>
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And . . . there are simply inconsolable pains for everyone, where the mind experiences its mortality and there is no technique to buoy it, which is the sort of experience nearer to the purpose of this thread.
 
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I have had my own moments of inconsolable pain.

I may not have had cancer or lost a child. These are things I never wish to experience, and I wonder how one would even cope through those experiences. But I have had my own pains.

I think in those moments of darkness in life lies a very valuable and sobering enlightenment. One that seems to only be realized once they are over and we have gotten through it.

We realize just how vulnerable we are. We realize just how naive we are in our daily lives. There is a sudden realization of, "Hey, I am all alone here". It establishes a great opportunity for self-reflection.


In that reflection one may learn a great multitude of things about oneself. You begin to realize that your whole world has been molded around the comforting fact that everything will always be ok. But it isn't always ok. That's just more egotism.

If we make it through these dark times we may come out of it all the better for it. These are the times we learn the meaning of words like, "empathy", "love", and "compassion". So that we may be there for others - when they go through their own dark times.

Yet, we are never really alone. I think a great deal of people turn to Christ in these moments. Could some of these tribulations be guided by the Holy Spirit?
 
Posts: 470 | Location: Greensboro, NC | Registered: 05 February 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<w.c.>
posted
Yes, I think so Eric. But sometimes so beyond our awareness that we do feel quite alone, at least for a time.

One other aspect of this that you are alluding to is how to support others when they go through such darkness. And you imply that if we've been through our own version of it, much that would otherwise pass for "help" is just Job's comforters, a real burden. As other writers have pointed out, we're only as good a supportive presence for those in inconsolable pain as we are able to let go of our resistance to what that person is going through, and to what we are feeling, and not have pat answers to burden them with.
 
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True. Just having our own personal bad experiences isn't going to help that person in pain. But it does leave us with some level of understanding of what they are going through.

We could try comforting them the best we could. What more could we really do? Empathy and compassion don't always go hand in hand with simple pity.

I think having a compassionate attitude towards someone in pain enables that person to feel some level of comfort. Maybe there is nothing we can physically do for them except be there for them and be understanding.

They will notice this and it allows them continue on with their process naturally without feeling like an added burden to you. Maybe the best we can offer is this comfort. However small and insignificant it is.

The problem is that we always want to help even when we can't. So we are really just trying to comfort our own conscience. True compassion is recognizing that we can't always help. This is the distinguishing difference between compassion and pity.
 
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I have a freind with lung cancer and another with breast cancer. They just want me to be with them as before. They know that they are being thought of and prayed for. I told my mom about the extremity of my symptoms recently, and UPS dropped off a box of tangerines from mom! Smiler

vitamin_c_therapy.com
 
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<w.c.>
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"The problem is that we always want to help even when we can't. So we are really just trying to comfort our own conscience. True compassion is recognizing that we can't always help. This is the distinguishing difference between compassion and pity."


Yes, and along with this there is sometimes a restlessness with what the person is going through, not just in feeling helpless ourselves re: not being able to aleviate their pain, but however it might push us into the unknown.
 
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