Is contemplation something that can occur outside prayer? Or does one have to be engaged in the activity of prayer to be graced so. I sometimes find my spirit quickened in different circumstances. Sometimes it's as if God's Presence has visited me in sleep. I may not remember much, but there is a spiritual liveliness and joy in waking that follows throughout the morning, making me desperate for prayer. Prayer doesn't necessarily enhance this state, and what follows is a desire to grasp and keep the concomitant depth in my soul, which eventually gives way to a resting in the beloved, rather than anything more active like Lectio etc. At these times there are usually Kundalini like side-effects, or occasional insights into the nature of the Creator, the Word become flesh, Christ as the only begotten of the Father etc. Again, these are fleeting. The mind attempts to hold on to them but they pass, leaving a warmth in the breast like something baking in an oven.

Then again, there are times when the natural faculties, quite apart from trying to grasp a contemplative state, are unable to function at all in prayer. Maybe this is akin to dryness. I find that just trying to be aware of one's breath can be helpful here, although at times even this is difficult. Surprisingly, and delightfully, however, one can leave the prayer room and get on with one's business, only to find a sense of God's Presence in one's natural surroundings or activities. So then, while any single act of prayer is not bound to lead into contemplation, there seems to be a natural relationship with the Lord where He responds to an active/passive heart in the habit of prayer, and gives of Himself because it's His desire to do so, often at the most unexpected times and in the most surprising way (eg. during sleep). The antithesis of this is where sin and demonic activity block any free flow of grace, leading one into repentance, which in itself is an example of God's grace overcoming sin and the devil.

I'd like to ask geridoc if he knows of instances where symptoms of mental illness surrounding contemplative and charismatic prayer have, in fact, been occult/demonic attempts to inhibit prayerful activity, and if he believes that psychiatry has anything to offer/suggest in these circumstances.

Stephen:

Your description seems spot on to me, especially how dryness arises from the faculties not being able to function, which may only be perceived as a loss when one has been dependent upon the imagination during active prayer for sensible consolations. I've also experienced something like what you're describing during sleep, and upon waking, and the fleeting insights the mind would ordinarily want to grasp were it not resting beyond itself.

In Kavanaugh's book on John of the Cross, he quotes at length the direction for those who find in prayer no need, or ability, to engage the initial stages of Lectio, but instead are drawn directly into resting in the Beloved. On the other hand, John of the Cross seems to teach that as long as active prayer is possible, and not interfering with our relationship with Christ, it should be engaged.

Here is the Catholic Church's official teaching on prayer, both its basic theology and recommendations for daily practice. A person utilizing Centering Prayer could see some cautions for that practice based upon the larger contexts of prayer described in the Catechism, i.e, development of virtue, transformation, purification of the psyche through "Thy will be done." It seems, in one or two places, that the Catechism may be alluding to the potential for confusion and false piety or spiritual pride arising from such technique-oriented methods.

The section on Vocal prayer, meditation and contemplation seem to embrace a fairly healthy understanding of human psychological life in relation to spiritual formation.


http://www.usccb.org/catechism...pt4sect1chpt3ind.htm

Reply to Stephen:
Re: "instances where symptoms of mental illness surrounding contemplative and charismatic prayer have, in fact, been occult/demonic attempts to inhibit prayerful activity, and if he believes that psychiatry has anything to offer/suggest in these circumstances".
The fact is that Psychiatry would have no way to make such a distinction. The official reply would of course be that demons and the occult are not things that have been proved to exist so science cannot comment on them. You must understand that science deals with observable phenomena that can be repeated in a laboratory.
When it comes to making a diagnosis where lab studies cannot be done, for example deciding whether somone has a migraine or whether the person is just getting headaches from worrying about his job.. The doc looks to see whether the pattern of signs and symptoms are those of a migraine. If they are, the job problems may only be an exacerbating cause rather than the etiology of the illness. In the same way if someone comes in with symptoms of mental illness and the pattern/form of symptoms are fairly pathognomonic then one would treat the most likely medical diagnosis.

I appreciate your reply, geridoc, and can see the limitaions of psyhciatry, and also its benefits in the cases of established mental illness.

Forgive me for opening a thread that hasn't had much activity for some time now, but I'm new to this forum and just came across a subject that is dear to me, i.e. "Centering Prayer."

I've been doing CP for about 35 years now, as taught by Fr Keating.

Phil in his OP, put a link to by Fr. John D. Dreher's article "The Danger of Centering Prayer," which has been used in various Catholic Forums to attack CP. The problem is, Fr Dreher's article borders fraudulent. For one, he states that the origins of CP came from dialogs hosted by the then Abbot, Fr Keating, at St Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, MA, where spiritual masters from Eastern Religion gave talks and taught about Transcendental Meditaion. From this Fr. Dreher jumps to the conclusion that this is how Fr Keating and Fr Pennington(RIP) learned about Centering Prayer and is what they've been teaching since. This not close to being true. Fr Keating and Fr. Pennington both wrote on where CP came from and how the term came about.

Essentially, back in the late 60's and early 70's when young people were leaving the Church and going to the East in search of meaning in life, the Vatican asked the heads of the various contemplative orders of the Church, to begin dialog with Eastern masters to learn what was drawing young Catholics to them. Hence, Fr Keating hosted meetings with members of these spiritual masters at the Abbey. However, what they learned wasn't that the Eastern Religions were doing Centering Prayer, but instead, they were doing a form of contemplative prayer. They of course knew that the Catholic Church already had a rich tradition of contemplative prayer, but ut just wasn't taught outside of monasteries. So, they decided to teach about contemplative prayer as taught by the mystics lkie Abba Isaac and St. John of the Cross. They merely called it "Quiet Prayer."

It began to catch on with both religious and lay people. On a particular week-end on which Fr Keating and Fr Pennington taught this method of contemplative prayer to Catholic religious, the participants came up with the term, "Centering Prayer." Fr Keating says that they probably got it from St. John of the Cross in that they had discussed his canticle, "The Living Flame of Love." If you read the Canticle and St. John's commentary, you'll see where he speaks about going to the "Center" to be in the presence of God. Hence the term "Centering Prayer," became the norm.

I found it odd that Fr Dreher never went to St. Joseph's Abbey to speak with Fr. Keating on the topic, being its only an hour away from his own parish in R.I. Also, if you read what he says about Centering Prayer, it is completely the opposite of what Fr Keating writes about it.

Anyway, Fr. Pennington also wrote about the origins of centering prayer in his book, "Centering Prayer," and I have found a web site with that part of it here;

http://www.kyrie.com/cp/a_gift_from_the_desert.htm

This site has plenty of information concerning "Centering Prayer."

Regards
Jim

Hi Jim,

You'll notice that, in my opening post, I took issue as well with Fr. Dreher's criticisms, and also that of EWTN. I don't know how much of this thread you've read (how many hours in a day does one have, anyway? ), but you'll see that the criticisms are much more nuanced, and are not at all intended to discourage people from this practice.

Peace, Phil

Hi Phil,
I read through much of this thread, and my intent was not criticism of what I read, but rather to help feed understanding on Centering Prayer.

In Christ
Jim