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Hi Dave and Phil!
It is very interesting to follow your exchanges on CP. Phil wrote: Dave, I'm very much OK with the notion that all religious traditions are onto truth and that their practices lead one to a living encounter with the Source of all truth. Phil's assertion of the above statement makes me to write this post. At the time of my kundalini awakening last year I encounter with Christ totally unexpected. This makes me to ask why? was it because of my Christian background? Was it because of my baptisim? or because Christ is the only way? I had this questions in my mind until I experience the recent attack. What I have learned from this exeperience is how this dark enemies infiltirate other spiritual ways than Christ's. One of the common experience among Christian mytics is their encountering with the anti-Christ forces called Satan or Devils. Experiencing the attack of this forces fully is both terrifying and enlightening. One of the important thing I learn from this experience is the only way to God is Christ. Although the notion all spiritual ways leads to the same Truth sounds very positive and harmonic in our mind, the ultimate Truth is only Christ. This statement is not coming out of my conviction from some thought or theology. The knowledge is gained experientially. |
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I respect what your experience has taught you here, Grace. It almost seems like you're doubting whether authentic encounters with the divine are happening in non-Christian traditions, however. One only needs look to the fruits of the Spirit among many of their people to see that God is alive and well in those traditions. My own belief is that Christ is there as well, though not so explicitly identified as in Christianity.
FWIW, I wasn't saying that all spiritual ways lead to the same Truth in the same way. I don't think they do, and have stated as much above. That would be a discussion better pursued in the thread on Enlightenment and Christian Spirituality, however. |
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Responding to a couple of other points in Dave's previous post:
In my own case, as an example, one could definitely say my contemplative practice is strongly informed by the Zen school. I would agree with that. But I am disinclined to view the kind of experiential receptivity which is the heart of that type of practice as something that is "formed" by the Zen school. (Indeed, like many contemplative currents, Zen is at times explicitly concerned that its practitioners let go of any ideas that they are practicing "Zen.") I'm not following, Dave. My experience with Zen training (nothing compared to yours) was that it very much did foster a certain kind of receptivity. What's the point of Zen or any other kind of spiritual training if not to form a certain receptivity? Zen is a tradition for cultivating honesty. This honesty carries profound epistemological, existential and ontological dimensions, but for the moment I'm just going to call it that -- honesty. I follow. I would use the term "authenticity" but it's pretty much the same, and I would, further, say, that Zen training helps to promote authenticity in the human spirit and its activities of attending, questioning, reasoning and decision-making. I believe this can be part of Christian spiritual training, for Christian spirituality is authentically practiced to the extent that the individual is authentic in the exercise of their own spirit. The old teaching on this was that self-knowledge (humility) is foundational in the spiritual life, which seems to be saying about the same thing. Such honesty is arrived at by a willingness to let go of presuppositions, suspend egotistical concerns, and give the uncreated, always already there Truth a chance -- a chance to inform us � and inform our practice � and inform our tradition. I think we need to reflect on this part some more, especially what you mean by "uncreated." The kind of letting go you speak of doesn't necessarily put one in touch with God, so much as allows the non-reflecting aspect of our own human spirit to become more experientially available to us. This can seem so different from our ordinary experience of reflecting consciousness that we are tempted to call it "Unborn" a la Zen Master Bankei, or even, perhaps, the divine itself, which is not the case. It does enable the perception of unbiased truth, however, so I think we're pretty close on that point. |
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Hello Grace, Phil, and w.c.,
You each have addressed fruitful issues. I think further exploration and dialog on these points will be rewarding. I'm leaning towards addressing some of the questions posed in your posts by looking, for starters, at passages from the author of The Cloud of Unknowing that look a whole lot like Zen to me, even while the teachings, experiences, and practices described there are expressed in a fully Christian idiom. I'm a little too busy at the moment to do a quality job with that, though, so I will give myself another day or so. Meanwhile, I'm wondering if we should start another thread. The discussion here is still relevant to Centering Prayer issues, but it has widened. There's already a thread on Enlightenment and Christian Spirituality, where some of what is now being explored would fit well, but that thread's pretty long, too (I wonder if readers are sometimes disinclined to join a discussion that has a lengthy backlog of material to "catch up" on). Also, I have yet to share much about my own spiritual history and background, which would of course give additional context for how I come to some of the perspectives I have. I am deeply committed to exploring and appreciating those experiences that are the most important in life - that's really all I am interested in - and any resource that can contribute to that I regard with respect. It's a very "practical" interest, which for me includes being very ecumenical and "postmodern." So, I'm thinking about proposing a thread that would pick up from the points raised in the preceding several posts, and go from there in a way where I could include additional personal material ... something like "Spiritual practice in a postmodern world" ... and maybe start it in the Transformative Experiences forum. What do you think? ~ Dave |
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Sounds good, Dave. Looking forward to your new thread.
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Also, I have yet to share much about my own spiritual history and background, which would of course give additional context for how I come to some of the perspectives I have.
Yes Dave. Since I believe ones personal spiritual experience weight a lot in this kind of discussion, I'm sure your coming on story add wider context to those interesting issues you have already raised. I'm looking forward to hear your spiritual history. |
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What do you think?
I think I look forward to reading what you guys and gals come up with. |
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Dave:
I'd certainly support that. It's hard to go wrong when exploring with an open heart. |
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I see that Fr. Pennington has died.
- http://www.liguori.org/index.a...IEWCATS&Category=478 He was certainly one of the prime movers and shakers of the cp movement. . . a good and jolly man! R.I.P. + |
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Hi geridoc, and welcome to the forum.
 I'm not sure why you just re-quoted an earlier post. Were you wanting to respond to it? Scroll down to the "Quick Reply" form at the bottom of the page for the easiest way to do so. I hope we hear from you. |
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[I am new to this kind of posts in online groups and my first post did not go through correctly] Here is my second try on Centering prayer:
As a psychiatrist and Catholic Christian using Centering prayer, I have to say that this kind of prayer is not without its dangers. Spiritual: I would definitely not recommend it to anyone who has not been reading the Bible and praying regularly for some years. Psychological: I would not recommend it to those who are very suggestible, or those with significant mental problems. The current Pope while he was just 'Cardinal Ratzinger', and Prefect of the Faith distributed an official letter titled 'Some Aspects of Christian Meditation', with the offical seal of approval from the then pope, John Paul II . Although the letter itself goes into both the positive and negative aspects of the renewed interest in meditative types of prayer, I have only quoted some of the cautionary statements below. [So don�t get the impression that the letter is against contemplation per se]. "Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God's presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any "technique" in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy" �The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be "mastered" by any method or technique. On the contrary, we must always have our sights fixed on Jesus Christ, in whom God's love went to the cross for us and there assumed even the condition of estrangement from the Father� (cf. Mk 13:34). The letter warns of the kind of thinking which seem to say that one ought to "try and overcome the distance separating creature from Creator, as though there ought not to be such a distance; to consider the way of Christ on earth, by which he wishes to lead us to the Father, as something now surpassed; to bring down to the level of natural psychology what has been regarded as pure grace, considering it instead as "superior knowledge" or as "experience." "To this end, they make use of a "negative theology," which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity" "However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness. On this topic St. Augustine is an excellent teacher: if you want to find God, he says, abandon the exterior world and re-enter into yourself. However, he continues, do not remain in yourself, but go beyond yourself because you are not God; he is deeper and greater than you". I like this statement: "It is necessary in the first place to bear in mind that man is essentially a creature, and remains such for eternity, so that an absorbing of the human self into the divine self is never possible, not even in the highest states of grace". The full text of this letter is available at: http://www.catholicculture.org...view.cfm?recnum=2932 |
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geridoc,
Welcome! I like where you are coming from very much. Catholic Christian mysticism, Straight up, neat, no ice or soda.Augustine, de Caussade, Gerrigou La Grange, Tanqueray, Poulain, Merton, Theresa ( of Avila and Lisieux), Teresa of Calcutta, Bernard, William of St. Thierry, Aelred of Rivaulx, Aquinas, Anthony, Benedict, pseudo-Dionysius, Desert Fathers, etc. If so, we'll have great fun working some of the bugs out of CP. caritas, mm <*))))>< |
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Echoing Michael's welcome, geridoc.
Thank you for bringing up Cardinal Ratzinger's paper. Those were especially pertinent quotes that you shared. I don't know if you've had a chance to read through this rather lengthy discussion, but it seems that you share some of the same concerns that others (self included) have expressed. You mention that you have been using cp; would you be willing to share more about your experience with this practice? Also, what are some of your specific concerns as a psychiatrist, especially if you've had to deal with cases. Hoping to hear more from you. |
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Thanks for the welcome. Although there is a degree of anonymity in the forum, for medico-legal reasons I am not allowed to give what could amount to professional opinions in a public forum like this. In any case, when in comes to prayer and God being a psychiatrist does not lead to any special competence, other than maybe a different perspective.
I will not discuss cases here, other than to say that the use of certain forms of prayer like CP/contemplation or its external opposite �charismatic prayer� often cause problems. Sticking to CP: 1. risk of inducing a form self-hypnosis in very suggestible persons; some CP teachers even use phrases used in hypnosis to get people to their �center�. For instance, I have heard this, and I have seen this mentioned either in this forum or elsewhere of people reporting that CP instructors have been asking the people to imagine being in an elevator, then going down to the 10th floor, the 11th floor and so on.. [these are phrases sometimes used in hypnosis]. I don�t think the leaders were aware of it, they usually tend to be teaching with a genuine desire to help people. 2. Those with major mental problems schizophrenia, OCD etc tend to have problems if asked to sit quietly and distance themselves from all thoughts. The initial period of learning CP where the person learns to ignore images, thoughts and sensations can lead to considerable confusion. People with these kind of illnesses tend to have an overabundance of thoughts or sensations to begin with. Although they would in theory benefit from learning to ignore them, very often the reverse happens. To me this happens when prayers like this are taught to just anyone who happens to be present. Ultimately for me, there is one question, that needs to be addressed: Is CP and others like it something that should be taught to just anyone, or is it a call from God, that occurs after developing a relationship with God through other forms of prayer? I know that sounds awfully elitist but that is not my intention. My knowledge of John of the Cross and Teresa are second-hand, via the books of Fr. Thomas Green [esp. �When the Well Runs Dry: Prayer beyond the beginnings�]. My understanding is that the traditional teaching was that contemplative prayer is something that some people are led to. In this view going to a parish and sending a flyer saying that there will be a talk on prayer and then surprising people by teaching CP to everyone who is present would not be appropriate.. |
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geridoc,
One of those axis II bipolar schizophrenic people with psychotic features pressed a copy of 'When the Well Runs Dry' into my hands during a difficult transition for yours truly. It was the perfect Rx for me and what I was going through at the time. Don't know where he got a book like that. He reads John Grisham and Tom Clancy. Shortly thereafter, I managed to find Jim Arraj and PSR. From there on, it's been uphill all the way down!  I've noticed that around half of the mystics I have met are Enneagram type 5, The Observer or The Sage. There can be a tendency toward schizophrenia in that personality type. If they have a 4 wing, The Romantic or Individualist, they may have an artistic personality, and if they have a 6 wing, Loyalist(counterphobic) or Devils Advocate (phobic), there can be a tendency toward paranoia or authoritarianism/anti-authoritarianism. There are roughly corresponding Meyers-Briggs types to match the Enneagram, but I do not have the information handy. I've seen all nine types in CP settings. I understand that many retreats keep a psychologist on hand for unusual situations. CP might well cause problems for some. Yes, an invitation from the Holy Spirit is best. It's not a panacea, although I thought so for a couple of years. IMO, the average person could benefit from a more contemplative life. very honored to meet you, michael |
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Geridoc,
Good to meet you. I have no doubt that those with psychotic tendencies are probably better off with a more active form of prayer for the reasons that you state. In addition, I think that vulnerability to experiencing dissociation may also cause difficulties for some when using or learning CP. However, as someone who is interested in the person centred approach I wonder about the implications of your argument. Does this mean that there should be some sort of screening? Who should decide which techniques are suitable for which people? As adults, even adults with a history mental illness, people have the right to make their own choices. The risks need to be acknowledged and people should know about them, but like Michael, I do think that involvement in CP should be at the invitation of the Holy Spirit. FrancesB |
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geridoc, I hope you take the time to read through this voluminous thread, as it addresses some of the issues your raise, especially concerning the propriety of presenting CP to just anyone. Generally, what seems to happen is that those who aren't ready for it just quit practicing it after a very short while. But that doesn't get to the heart of your question concerning who it's ideally suited for. There are numerous places in this thread where we take that up, and the consensus seemed to be that the best way to proceed with prayer is lectio divina, moving into a more simplified rest mode when grace moves one there.
Re. your point about hypnosis, I don't think that's common among cp teachers. It's certainly not part of the method that's taught, so it wouldn't really be a fair criticism of the cp movement to use that example. I've never run across that in any of their literature, web sites, workshops, newsletters, or in corresponding with cp teachers. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most would discourage "elevator" type meditations, as such are not really in the spirit of prayer. |
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I wonder whether the best evaluation of centering prayer is simply whether it brings you closer to God?
As a psychologist trained in scientific methods I am well aware of my own tendency to overcomplicate and overanalyse. My faith is one area where I am trying not to - this is partly why I am attracted to the contemplative lifestyle - of which I think (?) CP can be a part. That's not to say I think I should just turn off my intellect - God gave us that for a reason - but for me it can become an obstacle rather than a tool to bring me closer to Him. FrancesB |
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Geridoc:
Thanks for mentioning the books by Fr. Thomas Green. I've ordered the one you referred us to, and a second that seems to be something of a sequel. Lectio Divina has been my staple for the past five years, which seems to make room for all manner of active and passive modes of prayer. I have an earlier background in Buddhist meditation, and Hindu Vedanta, and when I attended a class on CP, it seemed more oriented to those psychological/energetic methods than to simple, devotional receptivity. There just seems too much work in it, such that even if a person were somewhat disposed psychologically to that kind of introspection, or not too vulnerable to the kundalini side-effects, he or she might not realize how God just wants us to rest in Him, or as Phil says: "Resting in the awareness of God's love for us." Of course, this rest is preceeded by active prayer, use of imagination, etc for us beginners. . . but as St. John of the Cross cautions, when there's mainly an emphasis on active forms, as one begins experiencing the sweet stilling of the faculties via the Holy Spirit, there could be resistance, since during this graced rest one has no sense of accomplishing anything except being open to a relationship that we don't initiate or regulate. It would seem to me CP might easily lead to this mistake, besides the dangers you mention. And, its treatment of Lectio Divina seems disrespectful of such a rich, ancient, time-tested method so close to the heart of Christian prayer. I'm just now finishing Kieran Kavanaugh's "John of the Cross: Doctor of Light and Love." This has been a good way to see how John's guidance is insightful re: the psychological aspects of spiritual formation. |
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Re: �Who should decide which techniques are suitable for which people? As adults, even adults with a history mental illness, people have the right to make their own choices�
I only mentioned the mentally ill because of the profession I am in. In itself, mental illness is not a contraindication. I am no expert, but IMO Contemplative prayer is not for the person who is a beginner in prayer. Contemplative prayer is not for everyone who has been praying regularly with other methods for a long time either. Assuming that the first statement is accepted, how is the more experienced pray-er to know that she/he is ready? I would defer to those who have been considered as �experts� in contemplation: 1. They should be praying regularly AND still experiencing dryness in prayer. 2. They should examine their conscience to see if it is an unconfessed grievous sin that is causing the dryness. 3. If they are STILL experiencing dryness in prayer, then contemplative methods of prayer would be something they could try. [If they have a major mental illness: each individual is different and it should be something they should ask their own treatment provider. Many would not recommend either CP or Charismatic prayer unless they have had no medication changes in the last 12 months/considered to be in remission for 12months.] |
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geridoc, it sounds like you're working with St. John of the Cross' three signs, above. I know Thomas Green discusses these at length in "When the Well Runs Dry" and "Drinking from a Dry Well," both of which I've read many years ago.
I don't have a major disagreement with this counsel, but it's not really what John of the Cross was advising. Rather, his 3rd sign indicated the early presence of infused contemplation, and he was recommending that pray-ers simply let themselves rest in this gentle, loving presence. Later interpretations took this to mean that he was recommending that one "cultivate" that sense of loving awareness, and so began the controversies about "acquired contemplation" which have perdured to this day. You can read all about it at http://www.innerexplorations.c...tchspmys/fromst1.htm in From St. John of the Cross to Us. What this author (my good friend, Jim Arraj, recommends can be found here. Basically, he recommends just continuing with lectio divina, and praying as best one can, and as simply, too. I quote:
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Jim Arraj and PSR,
My gratitude for you is bountiful and overflowing! I laughed so hard when I saw the imprimatur at the begining of 'When the Well Runs Dry.' Cardinal Sin of the Phillipines has given his blessing. God truly has a sense of humor. Might get the sequel, as w.c. has wisely chosen. Thomas Green was an experiencedspiritual director, and I wish that we had a thousand more just like him. I don't see CP as complicated or concentrative. It's just that there are several years worth of classes at Contemplative Outreach and several thousand dollars later we reach 'enlighenment.' People are rather complicated today and want alot of complicated psychology and expect even monks to provide it. CP is the simplest prayer I can imagine, even simpler than the Rosary. geridoc, thank you so much for showing up today! -michael |
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Phil:
Re: dryness and sensible consolations . . . . One aspect of dryness, as I understand it, is when the faculties cannot procure any sense of meaning, and are not able to rest themselves through any effort; it is dryness, IOW, from the pov of the faculties. "Sensible" consolation would arise from the faculties, although in graced contemplation, the senses are being ordered beyond themselves without the faculties knowing anything at all about the HS's process (occasionally the intuition is touched, but the knowing takes no discernible form). John of the Cross mentions, for instance, that the imagination still moves at times, but this by itself isn't an impediment to the HS unless we willfully engage the images, which the soul in contemplative prayer is generally not inclined toward anyway. There is also, at times, a "sense" of the Holy Spirit praying in me, with little understanding of this. And so the tendency to view dryness as a kind of Buddhist emptiness might have some of us abdicating the rest given by the HS as a consolation contrived by the will, and therefore treat it as being active and not properly "dry," as the senses and will do have their subtle response to the HS, often more detectable after prayer. Does that make sense? |
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Shalom Place Community Shalom Place Discussion Groups General Discussion Forums Christian Spirituality Issues Evaluating centering prayer