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Also, I have yet to share much about my own spiritual history and background, which would of course give additional context for how I come to some of the perspectives I have. Yes Dave. Since I believe ones personal spiritual experience weight a lot in this kind of discussion, I'm sure your coming on story add wider context to those interesting issues you have already raised. I'm looking forward to hear your spiritual history. | ||||
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What do you think? I think I look forward to reading what you guys and gals come up with. | ||||
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| <w.c.> |
Dave: I'd certainly support that. It's hard to go wrong when exploring with an open heart. | ||
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I see that Fr. Pennington has died. - http://www.liguori.org/index.a...IEWCATS&Category=478 He was certainly one of the prime movers and shakers of the cp movement. . . a good and jolly man! R.I.P. + | ||||
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Hi geridoc, and welcome to the forum.  I'm not sure why you just re-quoted an earlier post. Were you wanting to respond to it? Scroll down to the "Quick Reply" form at the bottom of the page for the easiest way to do so. I hope we hear from you. | ||||
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[I am new to this kind of posts in online groups and my first post did not go through correctly] Here is my second try on Centering prayer: As a psychiatrist and Catholic Christian using Centering prayer, I have to say that this kind of prayer is not without its dangers. Spiritual: I would definitely not recommend it to anyone who has not been reading the Bible and praying regularly for some years. Psychological: I would not recommend it to those who are very suggestible, or those with significant mental problems. The current Pope while he was just 'Cardinal Ratzinger', and Prefect of the Faith distributed an official letter titled 'Some Aspects of Christian Meditation', with the offical seal of approval from the then pope, John Paul II . Although the letter itself goes into both the positive and negative aspects of the renewed interest in meditative types of prayer, I have only quoted some of the cautionary statements below. [So don�t get the impression that the letter is against contemplation per se]. "Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God's presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any "technique" in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy" �The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be "mastered" by any method or technique. On the contrary, we must always have our sights fixed on Jesus Christ, in whom God's love went to the cross for us and there assumed even the condition of estrangement from the Father� (cf. Mk 13:34). The letter warns of the kind of thinking which seem to say that one ought to "try and overcome the distance separating creature from Creator, as though there ought not to be such a distance; to consider the way of Christ on earth, by which he wishes to lead us to the Father, as something now surpassed; to bring down to the level of natural psychology what has been regarded as pure grace, considering it instead as "superior knowledge" or as "experience." "To this end, they make use of a "negative theology," which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity" "However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness. On this topic St. Augustine is an excellent teacher: if you want to find God, he says, abandon the exterior world and re-enter into yourself. However, he continues, do not remain in yourself, but go beyond yourself because you are not God; he is deeper and greater than you". I like this statement: "It is necessary in the first place to bear in mind that man is essentially a creature, and remains such for eternity, so that an absorbing of the human self into the divine self is never possible, not even in the highest states of grace". The full text of this letter is available at: http://www.catholicculture.org...view.cfm?recnum=2932 | ||||
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geridoc, Welcome! I like where you are coming from very much. Catholic Christian mysticism, Straight up, neat, no ice or soda.Augustine, de Caussade, Gerrigou La Grange, Tanqueray, Poulain, Merton, Theresa ( of Avila and Lisieux), Teresa of Calcutta, Bernard, William of St. Thierry, Aelred of Rivaulx, Aquinas, Anthony, Benedict, pseudo-Dionysius, Desert Fathers, etc. If so, we'll have great fun working some of the bugs out of CP. caritas, mm <*))))>< | ||||
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Echoing Michael's welcome, geridoc. Thank you for bringing up Cardinal Ratzinger's paper. Those were especially pertinent quotes that you shared. I don't know if you've had a chance to read through this rather lengthy discussion, but it seems that you share some of the same concerns that others (self included) have expressed. You mention that you have been using cp; would you be willing to share more about your experience with this practice? Also, what are some of your specific concerns as a psychiatrist, especially if you've had to deal with cases. Hoping to hear more from you. | ||||
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Thanks for the welcome. Although there is a degree of anonymity in the forum, for medico-legal reasons I am not allowed to give what could amount to professional opinions in a public forum like this. In any case, when in comes to prayer and God being a psychiatrist does not lead to any special competence, other than maybe a different perspective. I will not discuss cases here, other than to say that the use of certain forms of prayer like CP/contemplation or its external opposite �charismatic prayer� often cause problems. Sticking to CP: 1. risk of inducing a form self-hypnosis in very suggestible persons; some CP teachers even use phrases used in hypnosis to get people to their �center�. For instance, I have heard this, and I have seen this mentioned either in this forum or elsewhere of people reporting that CP instructors have been asking the people to imagine being in an elevator, then going down to the 10th floor, the 11th floor and so on.. [these are phrases sometimes used in hypnosis]. I don�t think the leaders were aware of it, they usually tend to be teaching with a genuine desire to help people. 2. Those with major mental problems schizophrenia, OCD etc tend to have problems if asked to sit quietly and distance themselves from all thoughts. The initial period of learning CP where the person learns to ignore images, thoughts and sensations can lead to considerable confusion. People with these kind of illnesses tend to have an overabundance of thoughts or sensations to begin with. Although they would in theory benefit from learning to ignore them, very often the reverse happens. To me this happens when prayers like this are taught to just anyone who happens to be present. Ultimately for me, there is one question, that needs to be addressed: Is CP and others like it something that should be taught to just anyone, or is it a call from God, that occurs after developing a relationship with God through other forms of prayer? I know that sounds awfully elitist but that is not my intention. My knowledge of John of the Cross and Teresa are second-hand, via the books of Fr. Thomas Green [esp. �When the Well Runs Dry: Prayer beyond the beginnings�]. My understanding is that the traditional teaching was that contemplative prayer is something that some people are led to. In this view going to a parish and sending a flyer saying that there will be a talk on prayer and then surprising people by teaching CP to everyone who is present would not be appropriate.. | ||||
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geridoc, One of those axis II bipolar schizophrenic people with psychotic features pressed a copy of 'When the Well Runs Dry' into my hands during a difficult transition for yours truly. It was the perfect Rx for me and what I was going through at the time. Don't know where he got a book like that. He reads John Grisham and Tom Clancy. Shortly thereafter, I managed to find Jim Arraj and PSR. From there on, it's been uphill all the way down!  I've noticed that around half of the mystics I have met are Enneagram type 5, The Observer or The Sage. There can be a tendency toward schizophrenia in that personality type. If they have a 4 wing, The Romantic or Individualist, they may have an artistic personality, and if they have a 6 wing, Loyalist(counterphobic) or Devils Advocate (phobic), there can be a tendency toward paranoia or authoritarianism/anti-authoritarianism. There are roughly corresponding Meyers-Briggs types to match the Enneagram, but I do not have the information handy. I've seen all nine types in CP settings. I understand that many retreats keep a psychologist on hand for unusual situations. CP might well cause problems for some. Yes, an invitation from the Holy Spirit is best. It's not a panacea, although I thought so for a couple of years. IMO, the average person could benefit from a more contemplative life. very honored to meet you, michael | ||||
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Geridoc, Good to meet you. I have no doubt that those with psychotic tendencies are probably better off with a more active form of prayer for the reasons that you state. In addition, I think that vulnerability to experiencing dissociation may also cause difficulties for some when using or learning CP. However, as someone who is interested in the person centred approach I wonder about the implications of your argument. Does this mean that there should be some sort of screening? Who should decide which techniques are suitable for which people? As adults, even adults with a history mental illness, people have the right to make their own choices. The risks need to be acknowledged and people should know about them, but like Michael, I do think that involvement in CP should be at the invitation of the Holy Spirit. FrancesB | ||||
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geridoc, I hope you take the time to read through this voluminous thread, as it addresses some of the issues your raise, especially concerning the propriety of presenting CP to just anyone. Generally, what seems to happen is that those who aren't ready for it just quit practicing it after a very short while. But that doesn't get to the heart of your question concerning who it's ideally suited for. There are numerous places in this thread where we take that up, and the consensus seemed to be that the best way to proceed with prayer is lectio divina, moving into a more simplified rest mode when grace moves one there. Re. your point about hypnosis, I don't think that's common among cp teachers. It's certainly not part of the method that's taught, so it wouldn't really be a fair criticism of the cp movement to use that example. I've never run across that in any of their literature, web sites, workshops, newsletters, or in corresponding with cp teachers. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most would discourage "elevator" type meditations, as such are not really in the spirit of prayer. | ||||
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I wonder whether the best evaluation of centering prayer is simply whether it brings you closer to God? As a psychologist trained in scientific methods I am well aware of my own tendency to overcomplicate and overanalyse. My faith is one area where I am trying not to - this is partly why I am attracted to the contemplative lifestyle - of which I think (?) CP can be a part. That's not to say I think I should just turn off my intellect - God gave us that for a reason - but for me it can become an obstacle rather than a tool to bring me closer to Him. FrancesB | ||||
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Re: �Who should decide which techniques are suitable for which people? As adults, even adults with a history mental illness, people have the right to make their own choices� I only mentioned the mentally ill because of the profession I am in. In itself, mental illness is not a contraindication. I am no expert, but IMO Contemplative prayer is not for the person who is a beginner in prayer. Contemplative prayer is not for everyone who has been praying regularly with other methods for a long time either. Assuming that the first statement is accepted, how is the more experienced pray-er to know that she/he is ready? I would defer to those who have been considered as �experts� in contemplation: 1. They should be praying regularly AND still experiencing dryness in prayer. 2. They should examine their conscience to see if it is an unconfessed grievous sin that is causing the dryness. 3. If they are STILL experiencing dryness in prayer, then contemplative methods of prayer would be something they could try. [If they have a major mental illness: each individual is different and it should be something they should ask their own treatment provider. Many would not recommend either CP or Charismatic prayer unless they have had no medication changes in the last 12 months/considered to be in remission for 12months.] | ||||
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geridoc, it sounds like you're working with St. John of the Cross' three signs, above. I know Thomas Green discusses these at length in "When the Well Runs Dry" and "Drinking from a Dry Well," both of which I've read many years ago. I don't have a major disagreement with this counsel, but it's not really what John of the Cross was advising. Rather, his 3rd sign indicated the early presence of infused contemplation, and he was recommending that pray-ers simply let themselves rest in this gentle, loving presence. Later interpretations took this to mean that he was recommending that one "cultivate" that sense of loving awareness, and so began the controversies about "acquired contemplation" which have perdured to this day. You can read all about it at http://www.innerexplorations.c...tchspmys/fromst1.htm in From St. John of the Cross to Us. What this author (my good friend, Jim Arraj, recommends can be found here. Basically, he recommends just continuing with lectio divina, and praying as best one can, and as simply, too. I quote:
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Jim Arraj and PSR, My gratitude for you is bountiful and overflowing! I laughed so hard when I saw the imprimatur at the begining of 'When the Well Runs Dry.' Cardinal Sin of the Phillipines has given his blessing. God truly has a sense of humor. Might get the sequel, as w.c. has wisely chosen. Thomas Green was an experiencedspiritual director, and I wish that we had a thousand more just like him. I don't see CP as complicated or concentrative. It's just that there are several years worth of classes at Contemplative Outreach and several thousand dollars later we reach 'enlighenment.' People are rather complicated today and want alot of complicated psychology and expect even monks to provide it. CP is the simplest prayer I can imagine, even simpler than the Rosary. geridoc, thank you so much for showing up today! -michael | ||||
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| <w.c.> |
Phil: Re: dryness and sensible consolations . . . . One aspect of dryness, as I understand it, is when the faculties cannot procure any sense of meaning, and are not able to rest themselves through any effort; it is dryness, IOW, from the pov of the faculties. "Sensible" consolation would arise from the faculties, although in graced contemplation, the senses are being ordered beyond themselves without the faculties knowing anything at all about the HS's process (occasionally the intuition is touched, but the knowing takes no discernible form). John of the Cross mentions, for instance, that the imagination still moves at times, but this by itself isn't an impediment to the HS unless we willfully engage the images, which the soul in contemplative prayer is generally not inclined toward anyway. There is also, at times, a "sense" of the Holy Spirit praying in me, with little understanding of this. And so the tendency to view dryness as a kind of Buddhist emptiness might have some of us abdicating the rest given by the HS as a consolation contrived by the will, and therefore treat it as being active and not properly "dry," as the senses and will do have their subtle response to the HS, often more detectable after prayer. Does that make sense? | ||
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Is contemplation something that can occur outside prayer? Or does one have to be engaged in the activity of prayer to be graced so. I sometimes find my spirit quickened in different circumstances. Sometimes it's as if God's Presence has visited me in sleep. I may not remember much, but there is a spiritual liveliness and joy in waking that follows throughout the morning, making me desperate for prayer. Prayer doesn't necessarily enhance this state, and what follows is a desire to grasp and keep the concomitant depth in my soul, which eventually gives way to a resting in the beloved, rather than anything more active like Lectio etc. At these times there are usually Kundalini like side-effects, or occasional insights into the nature of the Creator, the Word become flesh, Christ as the only begotten of the Father etc. Again, these are fleeting. The mind attempts to hold on to them but they pass, leaving a warmth in the breast like something baking in an oven. Then again, there are times when the natural faculties, quite apart from trying to grasp a contemplative state, are unable to function at all in prayer. Maybe this is akin to dryness. I find that just trying to be aware of one's breath can be helpful here, although at times even this is difficult. Surprisingly, and delightfully, however, one can leave the prayer room and get on with one's business, only to find a sense of God's Presence in one's natural surroundings or activities. So then, while any single act of prayer is not bound to lead into contemplation, there seems to be a natural relationship with the Lord where He responds to an active/passive heart in the habit of prayer, and gives of Himself because it's His desire to do so, often at the most unexpected times and in the most surprising way (eg. during sleep). The antithesis of this is where sin and demonic activity block any free flow of grace, leading one into repentance, which in itself is an example of God's grace overcoming sin and the devil. | ||||
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I'd like to ask geridoc if he knows of instances where symptoms of mental illness surrounding contemplative and charismatic prayer have, in fact, been occult/demonic attempts to inhibit prayerful activity, and if he believes that psychiatry has anything to offer/suggest in these circumstances. | ||||
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| <w.c.> |
Stephen: Your description seems spot on to me, especially how dryness arises from the faculties not being able to function, which may only be perceived as a loss when one has been dependent upon the imagination during active prayer for sensible consolations. I've also experienced something like what you're describing during sleep, and upon waking, and the fleeting insights the mind would ordinarily want to grasp were it not resting beyond itself. In Kavanaugh's book on John of the Cross, he quotes at length the direction for those who find in prayer no need, or ability, to engage the initial stages of Lectio, but instead are drawn directly into resting in the Beloved. On the other hand, John of the Cross seems to teach that as long as active prayer is possible, and not interfering with our relationship with Christ, it should be engaged. | ||
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| <w.c.> |
Here is the Catholic Church's official teaching on prayer, both its basic theology and recommendations for daily practice. A person utilizing Centering Prayer could see some cautions for that practice based upon the larger contexts of prayer described in the Catechism, i.e, development of virtue, transformation, purification of the psyche through "Thy will be done." It seems, in one or two places, that the Catechism may be alluding to the potential for confusion and false piety or spiritual pride arising from such technique-oriented methods. The section on Vocal prayer, meditation and contemplation seem to embrace a fairly healthy understanding of human psychological life in relation to spiritual formation. http://www.usccb.org/catechism...pt4sect1chpt3ind.htm | ||
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Reply to Stephen: Re: "instances where symptoms of mental illness surrounding contemplative and charismatic prayer have, in fact, been occult/demonic attempts to inhibit prayerful activity, and if he believes that psychiatry has anything to offer/suggest in these circumstances". The fact is that Psychiatry would have no way to make such a distinction. The official reply would of course be that demons and the occult are not things that have been proved to exist so science cannot comment on them. You must understand that science deals with observable phenomena that can be repeated in a laboratory. When it comes to making a diagnosis where lab studies cannot be done, for example deciding whether somone has a migraine or whether the person is just getting headaches from worrying about his job.. The doc looks to see whether the pattern of signs and symptoms are those of a migraine. If they are, the job problems may only be an exacerbating cause rather than the etiology of the illness. In the same way if someone comes in with symptoms of mental illness and the pattern/form of symptoms are fairly pathognomonic then one would treat the most likely medical diagnosis. | ||||
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I appreciate your reply, geridoc, and can see the limitaions of psyhciatry, and also its benefits in the cases of established mental illness. | ||||
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