Phil and others:

Just a comment about Centering Prayer and how it may interfere with the simplicity facilitated in Lectio Divina. In CP, the focus on one word doesn't leave much room for the faculties, which in the beginning of prayer are not ordered or quiet, and often in need of an imaginative space for their soothing, where all the senses can be nourished. IOW, CP seems to rush the mind to a state of quiet it isn't ready for. The mind needs to move from a state of discursiveness to a state of wonder (which eases the internal dialogue while easing it further into a receptivity for prayer of simple regard and disposed to the gift of contemplation), and this transition is supported by the container of a meaningful passage of Scripture that suggests a relationship between Christ and the one praying. This state of wonder allows the one praying to be open to receiving meaning without having to control the process. The sense of this relational quality, and how the will is being consented to a Person, is probably lost on most folks new to CP, where one word is far more like a mantram used to quiet the mind rather than engage the mind in meditating receptively on a relationship. And so the delicate, and often fragile movement from active to passive receptivity, so well-contained in LD, is poorly taken up via CP where LD is given such little attention.

I would wager that those carefully taught LD, in an experential atmosphere, would see these differences quite clearly. As Arraj points out, the psyche, during CP, is probably often pushed too quickly into a state of quiet before its faculties are treated and soothed by the Holy Spirit.

Too bad courses on LD aren't offered more often around the country.

Good posts, JB and w.c. I think this recent contrast between CP and the prayer of simplicity highlights some of the issues of concern, here, especially in light of w.c.'s remarks on how the faculties need to be properly formed and supported. It seems that the classical practice was sensitive to this, rooting simplicity squarely within Lectio Divina. I turn again to Royo and Aumann's book, cited above:

quote:

Because of its simplicity, there is no particular method for this type of prayer. It is simply a question of gazing and loving. It is useful, however, to keep in mind certain counsels. Before one actually enters upon the prayer of simplicity, great care must be taken not to try to hasten the entrance into this type of prayer. As long as one is able to meditate and to obtain benefit from meditation, he should continue practicing that type of prayer. Otherwise he would be in danger of falling into that spiritual sloth which St. Teresa classified as foolishness.

The contrary extreme should also be avoided, namely, not to continue with the practice of meditation or even of affective prayer if one perceives clearly that the soul wishes to remain before God in a loving attention without any particular discursus or affective movement. St. John of the Cross severely criticizes those spiritual directors who try to keep souls restricted to the practice of discursive meditation when they have advanced far enough to enter the prayer of simplicity.

For the practice of the prayer of simplicity it is fitting that the soul dispose itself by means of some material, as was done in the use of simple meditation, but it should abandon it immediately if the attraction of grace so inclines. Nothing is lost if a person prepares himself for the prayer of simplicity by reading from a spiritual book or a manual of prayers, even if one is later moved by grace to turn the loving gaze of the soul to something else. . . . The essence of the prayer of simplicity requires that the powers of the soul be intimately united in this loving gaze, and this requires in turn that the object of attention should be simple and unified.

Contrast this with the method of centering prayer, whose teachers often connect the practice with the prayer of simplicity. Note, especially, these two points:

quote:

4. The sacred word is sacred not because of its inherent meaning but because of the meaning we give it as the expression of our intention and consent.

5. Having chosen a sacred word, we do not change it during the prayer period because that would be to start thinking again.

I must confess that, the more this goes, the more I am bothered by this. Phrases like that would be to start thinking again have no remote connection with the prayer of simplicity and suggest, more, a mantra type of dynamic. I also question the idea that intentionality and receptivity can be conveyed in the manner described in #4. A more spontaneous movement in and out of the prayer of simplicity, using various phrases and images as the Spirit leads would be more natural. "That would be to start thinking again," however, which would supposedly invalidate any movement toward contemplation.

Please note, here, once again, that I'm not buying into the pantheistic criticisms and other such nonsense. This article, which is a transcript of a program carried by EWTN years ago, is also problemmatic, in areas (Fr. LaFranz, in particular, is awful!). Increasingly, I am inclined to see CP practice as more dynamically oriented toward enlightenment states, which, as we've noted many times on these fora, is not a bad thing and, indeed, is something that Christians ought to be open to realizing. Note, I'm not denying that infused contemplation happens, of course, only that the practice seems to move more toward enlightenment.

Excellent, w.c. and Phil.

Hi w.c., I am familiar with Focusing but have never heard of Sedona Method. Would you mind please giving me some info on what it is? Thanks.

Hey Phil:

Can you connect DianeA to the Sedona Method thread? I can't find it.

DianeA:

You could also take a look at the books describing this method:

"The Sedona Method" by Hale Dwoskin

"The Power of Letting Go" by Patricia Carrington

Phil:

Do you know of any way to get a copy of "The Theology of Christian Perfection?" Amazon lists it as out of print and unavailable.

Sedona Method thread.

- - -

I don't know where to get The Theology of Christian Perfection. I know that Jordan Aumann, O.P., is still alive, and that he's written several texts on Christian spirituality since.

Thank you gentlemen for the Sedona Method info.

WC, fyi, over at Alibris.com they have a number of books by Jordan Aumann (search by author)�but apparently not the one you�re looking for.

I have a question about centering prayer.

I read

Applying Jesus'teaching that "a house divided aginst itself cannot stand," they have striven to heal their own divided and warring consciousnesses and bring their lives into an inner alignment through which it becomes possible to actually follow the teachings of Christ (which are in fact pitched to a level of consciousness higher than the egoic) and to live them into reality with integrity and grace.

Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening

What level are the teachings of Christ pitched to?
What does this mean?

xrw

Not sure I understand your question, xrw. Please elaborate.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Not sure I understand your question, xrw. Please elaborate. [/qb]

Well, Phil, you know.

Jesus was love. He pitched his teachings to all
levels. When he made the spit paste he was teaching love. When he told stories he was teaching love. He didn't have only one cathcer.
He threw pitches of love out all over the place for everybody to catch. Some of those pitches were just in the way he acted with people. When Cynthia says that, it sounds to me like shes saying that theres only a couple of people who can catch the love pitches of Jesus. That's wrong. Jesus pitched to everybody even the people in the stands.

xrw

OK, I understand. But what does this have to do with centering prayer? I'm not following your point.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] OK, I understand. But what does this have to do with centering prayer? I'm not following your point. [/qb]

The book has the words Centering Prayer on the cover.

My point is that the teachings of Jesus are bigger than words. They are pitched to everybody. Some people catch them. Some don't.

If the teachings aren't pitched to my level of consciousness, do I still have to follow the
ten commandments?

xrw

quote:

Originally posted by xrw:
[qb]

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] OK, I understand. But what does this have to do with centering prayer? I'm not following your point. [/qb]

The book has the words Centering Prayer on the cover.

My point is that the teachings of Jesus are bigger than words. They are pitched to everybody. Some people catch them. Some don't.

If the teachings aren't pitched to my level of consciousness, do I still have to follow the
ten commandments?

xrw [/qb]

Applying Jesus'teaching that "a house divided aginst itself cannot stand," they have striven to heal their own divided and warring consciousnesses and bring their lives into an inner alignment through which it becomes possible to actually follow the teachings of Christ (which are in fact pitched to a level of consciousness higher than the egoic) and to live them into reality with integrity and grace.


What does she mean when she says that the teachings of Christ are in fact pitched to a level of consciousness higher than the egoic?
How can the teachings which are teaching how to love be pitched only to a higher level of consciousness? I think they are pitched to all levels of consciousness. When I was a little kid,I knew love even though I didn't know words yet.There are kids that are saints. The teachings are pitched to all levels. And they don't all need words. They go past words and they include all levels. Centering prayer makes you a better catcher. xrw

xrw,

I think I understand what you are getting at.
In this particular, isolated quote, there is a
sense of reductionism (i.e., reducing the sum of
the teachings of Christ into linear verbiage only) and a sense of elitism (i.e., only those who are on higher levels of consciousness are having the teachings directed to them). Perhaps, it is the phrasing or specific choice of words by the author that is giving you the problem. Those people who have attained Divine Union do have a more in-depth understanding of the Gospels but that is not elitism by any means.
The words in the Gospels are written there for everyone to see but only some people can
'hear' what they are saying on this comprehensive level. Centering Prayer is a means
to increase responsiveness to this sort of 'hearing' and make one open to the possibility of Divine Union. Jesus said many things that may appear one way but were yet another. Paradox is part of his wisdom teachings. The apparent reductionism is another matter. It would be highly inappropriate to think that the sum of the teachings of Christ could be reduced to mere words which would be directed to a specific group. Love teachings go far beyond mere words. Perhaps, the author
could be a little more specific in her phrasing. You must remember to apply what the author is saying in the broader context of her work. It sounds like your problem is with her phrasing.
You aren't seeing the forest for the trees.
Read it over again and give it some thought in the broader context.

Best Wishes.

Felicity

Felicity, welcome.

Thanks for your feedback to xrw. Makes sense to me.

Good morning all,
I lead a women's retreat this weekend. I used Lectio Divina. We used the story of Mary & Martha and Psalm 139. In my humble opinion, the women were not ready for CP or sitting in silence. Heavens, they are Martha's, they do not sit in silence at any time. It "feels" wrong to them. Their husbands are farmers and they are nurses, administrators, therapists, etc. They do 3,4,5 jobs and sleep little. Self-care, not at all. Many women and men live this way in this world. They do not have time to think! Or to question. Meditation would be a pure gift from God, if they could accept it!!

In my humble opinion, they need to start with Lectio Divina. To sit and to hear the word. To allow God to take them deeper when they are ready. To have their focus on the face of Christ. To know "Who" is taking them on this journey of faith and healing.

I believe for a believer who (know I am talking about Christians because this is my experience) knows who their God is can do CP otherwise, I have to agree, I believe a person is just sitting in silence. Of course, God is still in control and can do all things! So, sometimes just by opening ourselves up, we go where we did not know it was possible to go.

My experience is, I did Lectio before doing CP. The LD led into CP or contemplation before I knew what it was or that it was. So, that is my comfort level or known. When I lead groups, I love to use Lectio and see where God takes us.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Felicity, welcome.

Thanks for your feedback to xrw. Makes sense to me. [/qb]

Thank you for the warm welcome. My pleasure.

There is an additional factor that should be considered by xrw. Protestant heritage relies
primarily on the written word: the Bible. On the other hand, Catholic heritage relies heavily on both Scripture and Tradition. Cynthia is
obviously from a Protestant heritage: a word heritage. xrw is most likely being influenced by a Catholic heritage. These ingrained cultural differences may also lead to misunderstandings.

Felicity

Phil,

Quote:

Increasingly, I am inclined to see CP practice as more dynamically oriented toward enlightenment states, which, as we've noted many times on these fora, is not a bad thing and, indeed, is something that Christians ought to be open to realizing. Note,I'm not denying that infused contemplation happens, of course, only that the practice seems to move more toward enlightenment.
---------

I would be very interested in hearing more on this topic. Where has it been discussed or how do you see enlightenment vs infused contemplation.

I am new on the enlightenment front and would love more perspective.

Diane, see http://shalomplace.com/ubb/ult...t_topic;f=1;t=000132

I have tried centering prayer (probably not long enough) and have not been successful with it. John Michael Talbot (a catholic musician who began his own franciscan lay community more info at www.brothersandsisters.org) talks about it in his books on prayer and meditation. He suggests that centering prayer is especially helpful when used with the Jesus Prayer. I guess I prefer lecto Divina especially when I am alone. I use the psalter in the book of common prayer and read the daily office. After I am able to focus the scripture comes alive for me. Lately in my readings I have been receiving the message to rely on God's help.

Thanks everyone for your intersting thoughts/observations. I have been following the topic discussion closely. At times i feel like some of it is a little over my head but i'm really greatful to be learning. I just was wondering about the connection between cp practice and kundalini. Some of the posts seem to point between a connection between k awakening or intensifying the process through cp practice. The people i have talked to who practice seem to imply that it isn't very common. One guy i met has been practicing for over 10 years and hasn't had all that much physical symptoms. Also consider bonnie shike(can't remember last name0) respone in the inner explorations link. She says that symptoms are very rare. I wonder if there is a connection between the way it is practiced? I have felt at times that i may have been practicing wrongly (to willfully) when i experienced k arousels... Just a thought? :

I was advised by cp teacher to take my time before moving into cp practice or other meditation. He mentioned how some people go deeply into meditation and how they are not really ready for the energy changes that happen as a result. Time is key.He talked about how there is no rush in the journey. I have found lectio a great way to engage with God lately. I'm really hoping to find some retreats in lect run in Australia...

I've taken to looking out the window or at the Rocky
mountains or candles and halfway meditating. It's rather easy now to find some kind of still point or a peaceful, restful place, even in the midst of confusion. I'm in a bit of a dry spell, but still feel ecstatic and rapturous when dwelling upon the Beloved. Actually, I believe I have been in a state of aquired/infused contemplation for about four years now, for which I am great-full, but by no means have become sane.

I was just talking to a couple of ex-cons at a bus
stop, and it was fairly simple to match their mental inconsistencies with some of my own. It's nice to be human, and by no means saintly. Saints are made by Grace and SURRENDER.

Gooday mate!