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Most of the scientistic crowd that I have met seem to have come from fideistic, fundamentalist Protestant backgrounds who were disillusioned by the obvious errors in their God-concepts. In their disillusionment, they tossed out both their faulty God-concept and, along with it, any openness to God. They could have adopted a more carefully defined and predicated God-concept but, for whatever reason, probably felt so betrayed by their childhood religion, they threw the Baby Jesus out with their fundamentalist bathwater.

That's a wonderful observation. Let's face it. I will never be mistaken for a middle-of-the-roader, nor would I want to be. I've gone through the acceptance and rejection phase of one ideology or the other more than once and have never landed anywhere near anything that could be called a middle ground. The search continues. So I wonder too, as you seem to be saying, if some people don't prematurely collapse their ideological waves and trade some sense of surety to escape uncertainty and paradox? Of course, some would say that that is exactly what religious believers do. I've come to understand that things ain't all that simple outside the world of stereotypes. In fact, there's a blatant honesty to faith. It's a declaration of reality, humility and honesty that "I just don't and can't know everything." And I suppose when and if either side prematurely collapses their ideological wave functions then beliefs can and do cause all sorts of problems instead of being the groundwork for augmenting, guiding or reflecting our lives in this seemingly paradoxical existence.

The trouble with resolving the mountain nondualistically is that science is stopped in its tracks (and this did happen in much of the East). The trouble with resolving the mountain exclusively dualistically is that the splendor of existence and the intuition of being are lost in a banal taken-for-grantedness, which is accompanied by the murmur of it just is .

A Buddhist-like Smiler

There is a certain arrogance in resolving the irresolute paradox of existence. A prime example is the Hegelian dialectic of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. This is a making of the human mind into an idol in the most insidious way, claiming for it powers that it does not possess, a true tower of Babel that fueled communism and dialectical materialism.

That's one of the hardest concepts for me to articulate � probably because I still don't understand it fully. You have helped. There are the seeds of it here in an article about diversity. I don't know exactly why religion is important � and tremendously so � but I intuit that it is because I see what happens around the world when there is the absence of it. Okay. Fair enough. There have been some horrible things where religion has existed as well. But I think it is indeed arrogance (or at least ignorance or a misunderstanding) to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Once can sense that the mere reaching and longing for purity, for the wish to escape from paradox and uncertainty, is probably the true seed of nasty things in this world. These things can be (and have been) expressed in religion as well in secular pursuits. But if you throw out the baby of religion you'll make the bathwater that much more prepared, at least in my opinion, for the abuses of this rush to closure.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So I wonder too, as you seem to be saying, if some people don't prematurely collapse their ideological waves and trade some sense of surety to escape uncertainty and paradox?

I think this is a fair assessment.

I think the trick is to both embrace and eschew paradox at the same time (and I don't mean paradox in general but this paradox of existence, in particular).

We eschew this paradox (like any other) to the extent that we have faith that a given contradiction is apparent, is illusory, is seeming ... and can be cleared up, done away with, dissolved.

We embrace paradox to the extent that we acknowledge that we are not the ones who can clear it up or properly resolve it (at least not this particular paradox).

So, I appreciate and understand the impetus to rush to closure insofar as we declare that this contradiction must not stand! That seems to be a worthy sentiment inasmuch as our past experience has taught us that many seeming contradictions have been resolved by the taking of different vanatge points. At the same time, it is a major mistake to nurture the idea that we can attain to such a vantage point as can take in the whole of existence, thereby vanquishing the paradox of existence. A part, in principle, cannot comprehend the whole-- but, from a holistic perspective, we should not deny that the whole can be made at least partly intelligible from a careful consideration of its parts. This is the panentheistic approach that affirms being as both immanent and transcendent.

A highly nuanced agnosticism has far more in common with a panentheisim than either has with other theisms, atheisms, fideisms, deisms, etc because they both nurture a healthy measure of doubt without caving in to a total skepticism. True faith is on a polar reality with doubt, remains always poised over the abyss of doubt. All dogmatic certainties have one thing in common --- lack of a healthy measure of doubt. Thus fideism and scientism are obverse sides of the same coin, which has no currency; they lack what Alan Watts has called the wisdom of insecurity . Thus it is that Julian declares that all may be well, not going so far as TV preachers in laying out precisely how this will be so. Wink I have little doubt that the paradox of existence resolves. I have little doubt that Sagan and Hawking have never uttered a cogent thought pertaining thereto, except maybe when Hawking asked where the fire in the equations originates.

BTW, I liked the First Things article and highly recommend that the First Things Search Engine be used frequently by any serious inquirer after truth, neocon or not Big Grin
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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BTW, I liked the First Things article and highly recommend that the First Things Search Engine be used frequently by any serious inquirer after truth, neocon or not

Yes. I've got that place bookmarked and mean to browse through the back issues as much as I can. I appreciate your continued links. I've read the "Smiling Wisdom" one and thought it was excellent. The other one I skimmed. It was pretty intricate stuff.

But I don't really need the First Things search engine. I've got a much better one - as long as he's willing to indulge from time to time. Wink
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Speaking of First Things, I just ran into this article: The Enemies of Religious Liberty. I'm having a little side discussion about this elsewhere as well, and mention this only as a sort of disclaimer, not an invitation. But it's an open and honest, if often brutal, discussion of religion and politics.

quote:
But a test of liberalism�s commitment to liberty should be precisely whether it can tolerate the �intolerant��that is, those who make absolute claims for their beliefs. This in turn is part of liberalism�s larger test�whether it can function nonideologically, providing maximum freedom for contending viewpoints, or whether it is itself a comprehensive ideology that demands adherence�

If the Constitution respects not religion as such but merely �conscience,� then it follows that the state�s endorsement of certain controversial secular positions is no different from its endorsement of religious beliefs. The implications of this view are evaded by treating the First Amendment as embodying two contradictory meanings, which thereby gives nontheistic ideologies a competitive advantage. As Jesse Choper has pointed out in Securing Religious Liberty (1995), the �establishment clause� has no secular equivalent�no promise not to establish a secular code of belief.

In identifying the interests of the state, in formulating some concept of the public good, comprehensive liberals exclude religious believers as such from citizenship, even though a very high proportion of citizens define themselves as religious. A large majority of the nation is thus required to acquiesce in the use of governmental authority precisely for the purpose of undermining their own beliefs, even of impairing their ability to inculcate those beliefs in their children. By redefining �free exercise� and exalting the �establishment clause,� separationists have in effect �established� their own hostility to religion.

Extreme separationists justify restraints on religious liberty on the grounds that religion tends to foment divisiveness. But they impose no such restraints on divisiveness of a secular kind. Ironically, liberals who are quick to detect signs of political repression even in democratic societies now justify the restriction of religious liberty on precisely the grounds traditionally used to justify political repression�that full freedom cannot be granted to those who allegedly would use it to undermine the regime of freedom. It is, to say the least, paradoxical to restrict religion undemocratically because it is deemed to be insufficiently supportive of democracy.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This article Europe�s Problem�and Ours could be placed anywhere; in the thread about Iraq or even here. It's fairly comprehensive about why Europe and America see the world so differently. It's quite a read.

quote:
Writing during the Occupation of France by Nazi Germany, Henri de Lubac, S.J., proposed that the civilizational crisis in which Europe found itself during World War II was the product of what he called �atheistic humanism��the deliberate rejection of the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus, in the name of authentic human liberation. What biblical man had perceived as a liberation from the whims of the gods or fate�the self-revelation in history of the one God who was neither a willful tyrant nor a remote abstraction�atheistic humanism perceived as bondage. Human greatness required rejecting the biblical God.

This, de Lubac suggested, was something new. It was not the atheism of skeptical individuals looking to discomfort the neighbors. This was atheistic humanism, atheism with a developed ideology and a program for remaking the world. Ideas have consequences, and bad ideas can have lethal consequences. At the heart of the darkness inside the great mid-twentieth-century tyrannies, de Lubac discerned the lethal effects of the marriage between atheistic humanism and modern technology. He summed up the results of this misbegotten union in these terms: �It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man.� That is what the tyrannies of the twentieth century had proven�that ultramundane humanism is inevitably inhuman humanism.

European man has convinced himself that in order to be modern and free, he must be radically secular. That conviction has had crucial, indeed lethal, consequences for European public life and European culture; indeed, that conviction and its public consequences are at the root of Europe�s contemporary crisis of civilizational morale. That crisis of civilizational morale, in turn, helps explain why European man is deliberately forgetting his history. That crisis of civilizational morale helps us understand why European man is abandoning the hard work and high adventure of democratic politics, seeming to prefer the false domestic security of bureaucracy and the false international security of the UN system. That crisis of civilizational morale is why European man is failing to create the human future of Europe.

Writing in the aftermath of World War II, Christopher Dawson took exception to the suggestion that modern European civilization was �pagan.� Paganism was rife with religious sentiment, Dawson recalled; what was going on in mid-twentieth-century Europe was something different. True, many men and women had ceased to belong to the Church; but rather than belonging to something else, rather than adhering to another community of transcendent allegiance, they now belonged nowhere. This �spiritual no man�s land,� as Dawson characterized it, was inherently unstable and ultimately self-destructive. Or, as the usually gentle Dawson put it in an especially fierce passage, �a secular society that has no end beyond its own satisfaction is a monstrosity�a cancerous growth which will ultimately destroy itself.� One wonders what Christopher Dawson would say today.
Now, I'll grant you that when countries were highly religions � even run by religion � there were plenty of wars too, although not as bloody as WWI or II. The lesson here, at least for me, is that we haven't yet truly come to grips with the idea of "the separation of church and state." We shouldn't separate out higher moral principles when applying this separation principle. The principle is not meant to wring out the last drop of religion-inspired morality from the State. It's meant to secure freedom for all � religious or otherwise. That's a big difference. We don't want a country run by The Church of America any more than one run by the Anti-Church of Secular Humanism. To choose one or the other really misses the point. The point is to secure freedom for all viewpoints, not from a particular viewpoint. That means, from time to time, each will find expression in our laws and in our culture. It's not doomsday if this happens. It's only doomsday if one triumphs over the other politically to such an extent that truth and reason take back seats due to our immersion and preoccupation with the protection of pet ideologies.

It's a really tough sell these days to suggest that religion should be tolerated - let alone that it may be the answer to a crumbling and degenerating Western World. There's probably been too much public relations damage done to religion � justified or not � to ever sell this concept. But what can and should be sold is the belief in the freedom of the individual over a misplaced and overriding faith in the State. That's a notion friendly to both secular humanists and the religious � excepting those who wish to inappropriately bully the other. Right now we have a whole generation of people who are looking to the State in the same way that people used to look to God, family, church or neighbors. The State is the answer to everything - if first purged of all irrational and dangerous religious influences, of course. Some do not see the inherent tyranny in that proposition. Many do not see the inherent wisdom and need to believe in things larger than themselves and that are NOT political in nature.
 
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It will be interesting, though I doubt edifying, to see what Thalo has to say about the Hitchcock article.

You know, all of these religion/politics discussions precisely illustrate my point that the fundamental problem lies with fundamentalism itself, and it matters not whether it is a fundamentalistic scientism (atheistic humanism brand) or a fundamentalistic fideism, the former banishing faith, the latter, reason; both w/o a healthy measure of self-doubt.

The track record of the fideistic religions and scientistic ideologies in the 20th Century, whether radical Islam, Maoist China, Stalinist Russia, etc is hideous, horrendous and not just regarding their intolerance toward others but as revealed in the manner in which they treated their very own (MILLIONS). Even Hitler was driven by very uncatholic nationalistic extremes. Those who want to invoke some type of moral parity between our United States as one nation under God and these other regimes are so caught up in ideological axe-grinding that they are blinded to stark reality. Am I missing something here?
 
Posts: 2881 | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It will be interesting, though I doubt edifying, to see what Thalo has to say about the Hitchcock article.

LOL. Be he *is* a smart guy (as are most of those people there). And they do represent and articulate well the views of many people. I find it instructive to listen to all points of view. One should be willing to dip one's gold into a mild acid bath if only to polish it, although one is at risk of having it dissolved entirely.

You know, all of these religion/politics discussions precisely illustrate my point that the fundamental problem lies with fundamentalism itself, and it matters not whether it is a fundamentalistic scientism (atheistic humanism brand) or a fundamentalistic fideism, the former banishing faith, the latter, reason; both w/o a healthy measure of self-doubt.

I agree. It might have best been stated when someone said: "I don't believe in what you're saying but I'll fight to the death your right to say it." It seems these days that too many people are unwitting accomplices to extreme ideologies that mask themselves as libertarian. There are some wild agendas out there and, most people being quite reasonable at heart, I don't think they catch onto them too quickly � if at all sometimes. It's the old "the only thing evil needs in order to triumph is for good people to do nothing." At least these people are thinking seriously about these issues. They're right about some things and I think quite wrong about others. I'm not quite sure which ones I'm right and wrong about either.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Beliefs and ideologies, one would think at first glance, are logical constructs no more tightly held than a mathematical equation. If one found that 2+2 did not, in fact, equal 5 then one would amend one's beliefs accordingly with little muss or fuss or threat to one's ego. But that does not seem to be the case. Beliefs and ideologies are eventually integrated as parts of our selves. We identify our selves with ideas and nothing keys our survival instincts like an attack on our selves. Thus an attack on an idea we hold is often taken as an attack on our selves and our self worth. If we hold a mistaken idea then quite naturally it would show us to not only be in error but as an error in a very personal way.

Of course, when shown conclusively that 2+2 equals 4, even scientists often hold stubbornly to their theories, although these theories are way more complex than just 2+2. Because so much of reality is infused with paradoxes and uncertainties, it's probably a good thing that there is a good amount of inertia involved in our beliefs. Because we don't see all evidence at once at any given time, and because our intellects are finite, we can often be swayed by what seems to be irrefutable logic only to change our minds later when we hear a suitable refutation. If we operated by nothing more than the simple on/off paradigm of a computer than we might be thrust willy nilly this way and that. Changing truths as easily as we changes socks does not sound like a very productive mode of living. Our ignorance and stubbornness can be forces for some type of "guiding light" if only so that we don't too easily integrate stupider notions than the ones we already have. Wink

But surely we must give our due to logic and reason no matter the consequences for our ideas. If one has faith then, hopefully, one fully admits this and admits its inherent limitations (as well as appreciates its intuitive strengths � science couldn't exist without it). But if one, as JB has so eloquently pointed out (or intimated � at least to my mind), forgets which is faith and which is reason, or becomes too absorbed in one to the exclusion of the other and therefore loses a healthy respect for doubt, then faith becomes unreasonable and reason becomes but a masked faith.

In an "Age of Reason" one would hope that we would get our biggest kicks out of the process of discussing ideas more so than the results of the discussion. That is, we might better align our egos with the nobility of looking for the truth, and being corrected where necessary, than defending the truths we have supposedly already found as if our worth depended on us recognizing truth the first time, every time.
 
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But what can and should be sold is the belief in the freedom of the individual over a misplaced and overriding faith in the State. That's a notion friendly to both secular humanists and the religious � excepting those who wish to inappropriately bully the other. Right now we have a whole generation of people who are looking to the State in the same way that people used to look to God, family, church or neighbors. The State is the answer to everything - if first purged of all irrational and dangerous religious influences, of course. Some do not see the inherent tyranny in that proposition. Many do not see the inherent wisdom and need to believe in things larger than themselves and that are NOT political in nature.

That's very good! I don't think we'll ever get as silly about secularism as Westerm Europeans, however. It's one thing to forbid a Judge Moore to install a monument to the 10 Commandments in a public courthouse at taxpayers' expense, but another to forbid wearing a crucifix in public, or forbidding Moslem women from wearing a head scarf. Yes, I'm talking about France! Roll Eyes That seems a gross violation of the principle of freedom of speech, which Americans are willing to concede for both sides -- at least thus far in our history. Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion, which seems to be the situation in Western Europe and is very much in the spirit of modern day liberalism.

In an "Age of Reason" one would hope that we would get our biggest kicks out of the process of discussing ideas more so than the results of the discussion. That is, we might better align our egos with the nobility of looking for the truth, and being corrected where necessary, than defending the truths we have supposedly already found as if our worth depended on us recognizing truth the first time, every time.

That's a really nice description of what I'd call intellectual humility. Socrates modeled this aeons ago; it's still a most valid approach, I believe.

Of course, the enemy to this approach is ideology and the way it becomes rooted in self-image, as you noted. Just another instance of herd mentality when you get right down to it.

--- JB, how are we doing on the paradox of existence? Well, maybe at least we can say that some of your dialogue partners have been infected with some kind of ideological meme, and that's a tie-in, no?
 
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One should be willing to dip one's gold into a mild acid bath if only to polish it, although one is at risk of having it dissolved entirely.

I've sought out forums with the lowest possible pH in recent years and I can attest that it has always been a risk-free venture. Oh, admittedly, I think I lost a little of my fool's gold but, mostly, my jewelry's all the more shiny and resilient. Smiler
 
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I've sought out forums with the lowest possible pH in recent years and I can attest that it has always been a risk-free venture. Oh, admittedly, I think I lost a little of my fool's gold but, mostly, my jewelry's all the more shiny and resilient.

Truly, brother JB, I have no wish to promote uncivil discourse as a means to truth. But I've also found that truth can be found in the darndest places and untruths are as easily mixed into polite language as crude language. And sometimes there's a simple honesty in such phrases as "Brad, you block head. How could you believe a bunch of hogwash like that?" [We could find use for turning that phrase into an emoticon.]
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's a really nice description of what I'd call intellectual humility. Socrates modeled this aeons ago; it's still a most valid approach, I believe.

Darn. I'm still aiming for my first original thought here at Shalom Place. Every time I say something that I think is unique I find it's been said before, and usually better, by someone else, whether Socrates, Thomas, or whomever.

The search continues. It's a paradox. There. That should do it.

Big Grin
 
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