What is the meaning of suffering in our spiritual life, our spiritual practice, our prayer?
How our pain is connected with Christ's pain? What is the difference between patological satisfaction in our pain, and the joy we find in accepting our suffering for the sake of others and for the sake of Jesus?

I took the motto from a prayer by St. Ignatius Loyola:

Soul of Christ, santify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me.
Within your wounds, hide me.
Never let me be separated from you.
From the malignant enemy, defend me.
At the hour of death, call me;
and bid me come to you.
That with your saints I may praise you
forever and ever.

What does it mean to hide within the Wounds of the Lord?

Posted by Fred 26 May 2009 04:05 AM

Dear friends,

I take this post from another thread on yoga.

I was startled by this saying of W.C. on still another thread on energetic systems: https://shalomplace.org/eve/for.../18910625/m/13610606

"I did a lot of Qigong and Yoga early on, and this only aggravated the woundedness which needed relational presence beyond technique".

I feel is very to the point in my case, because my practice of yoga 2 times every day still increases the pain in my body (abdomen, chest, neck,...)! As the Pesso therapist in my first session said, I have to close down more than to open myself, which means that it is better not to confront myself time and again with this pain (as in Primal therapy?) but to look for distraction by doing things I like. I find yoga in itself beautiful and even esthetic, but it opens things I cannot handle at the moment. W.C. is (as always) very to the point in saying that relational presence is needed as in this Pesso therapy. So I stop this yoga for the time being.
Pesso is (like other therapies) about (5) basic needs, that are fulfilled or not. In my case, it is obvious that there is something 'wrong' with boundaries and restriction. A pattern of all or none, a bottomless well, perfectionism...
At the background is a deep feeling of insecurity and fear.
I now am sure that all this can only properly be dealt with in a relational (therapeutic, friendship, love, Jesus, Mary) context.

Greetings,
Fred


Posted by Mt 26 May 2009 04:24 PM

I think that because the source of most of our problems is our relationship with our parents, who weren't perfect (how could they be?) and often didn't do their job as they should, our healing also comes through relationship. I think that God can heal us in an instant if he wants to, but he rather lets us experience the whole process of healing, which isn't always quick or easy. I noticed that, even though relationship with God and with Virgin Mary sustains me, heals me and gives me a lot of support, it isn't necessarily as therapeutic as a relationship with a therapist. Maybe it's because those people whose acceptance we lack are humans (our parents), God's acceptance is not always enough to heal us. Also our friends and life partners accept us, but often they have their own problems with that, and their acceptance isn't enough. Therapeutic relationship should be based on acceptance to such degree as to undo our previous experiences, where we had to be this or that to be loved.

I noticed that while I'm resting in God's love, I don't do those things I usually do - try to be this or that, try to please etc. God's love works like that. Sometimes it brings to the surface all the pain of not being loved, since we encounter absolute, true love. But i can't simply transfer this experience of being loved to the relationships with people, since they're not God. That's why simple experience of God's love, even though it's transforming and sanctifying, might not be enough to heal our emotional wounds.

I remember those few days month ago, when I was receiving a vision of Jesus eyes looking at me. He was looking with unimaginable love, but I noticed that this is not human love - it was more than human. This love was seeing everything in me, not judging, but it couldn't have been bargained with, or compromised. Total love. I was deeply transforming just to look into Jesus' eyes, because I knew that he knows everything about me, and loves me without expectations, but I remember that I thought that no-one I know can look like that, can love like that. For the love I saw in His eyes I surrendered my whole life. But my wounds didn't heal just because I saw this love in His eyes. And after this visions were gone, He started to show me His wounds, like He'd like to say: "I also was wounded, and through my wounds you'll be healed". Healed when? I don't know. Maybe not in this life. But I like what Phil wrote somewhere, that just being in the presence of such Love has to change us somehow. However, many saints carried their wounds until death, and many people experience only aridity in their faith.



Posted by Fred 27 May 2009 02:57 AM

Mt.!
Thanks for sharing this message!
Yes, I would like to start this thread on sin, wounds, bonds, suffering, although I have been writing on it in the past.
Now, I want to share with you all what happened yesterday. I was again in great confusion in my mind because of all those different directions and approaches in spirituality and psychology annex therapy. The Pesso therapist wrote me that sometimes he advices some body work apart from the therapeutical relation, in order to integrate this in the Pesso therapy. I didn' t knwo where I had it! Was pesso then not enough? I have already tried all those things (body work, rebirthing, reiki, breath therapy, bach flowers, homeopathy, yoga, bio-energetics, shiatsu...), although I admit it was more kind of shopping and never a long term therapy!
So in all my confusion and pain I searched for yet another osteopath in the place where I live. I had a talk with this guy and because he thought he couldn't help me, he honestly directed me to another therapist. I read about part (!) of her work (group and individual) and was confronted by words like: active Osho meditation, kundalini, vipassana, chakra breathing, nataraj (?), gourishankar (?)...
I know that most of you (certainly Phil himself) on this forum are Christian inclusivists.

"The majority of the 'great religions' which have sought union with God in prayer have also pointed out ways to achieve it. Just as the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions, neither should these ways be rejected out of hand simply because they are not Christian. On the contrary, one can take from them what is useful so long as the Christian conception of prayer, its logic and requirements are never obscured. It is within the context of all of this that these bits and pieces should be taken up and expressed anew…" - Excerpt from "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on some aspects of Christian Meditation" by Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)

I know that great men like B. Griffiths, Lassalle, Le Saux, Déchanet integrated wisdom of other traditions in their Christian faith, but I guess I am still contaminated by my rather fundamentalistic background (but aslo by contacts with New Age and even occult people) and therefore troubled by some things.
While reading some of Shasha's posts and information on the books she mentions, I was fascinated by the stories of so many people coming out of New Age and all sorts of false teachings. So, I am quite concerned about being involved in yet another trap!
To which point alternative therapy is sound and where does New Age or even occultism creep in? This question of inclusivism and exclusivism is after all not an easy matter, I think.
Some further suggestion?

PAX,
Fred

Posted by Mt 27 May 2009 04:32 AM

Fred,
I think it's fairly common sense. Some teachers and therapists give you some exercises in postures, movements and breathing that help the energies flow more smoothely. And they do it without adding conceptions and beliefs from New Age or Eastern religions. For me it's the safest and easiest way to integrate those into my Christian life. I practice yoga, but we don't use mantras (only AUM at the beginning), chakras, and certainly no New Age underlying agenda. Iyengar's yoga is rather traditional and not newagey at all, also kinda "scientific". I'm sure you can find such forms of body-work where there's little or no occultism and New Age.

I also think it's better when we do one thing at the time: I'm not sure if mixing Osho, kundalini, devotional hinduism (Guru Shankar, Nataraj...), breathing exercises and probably some other beliefs underlying the whole program is necessary for working with our body.

Ken Wilber who tries to "get integral", emphasizes that we need to "specialize" as much as possible - if you want to work with physical body, says Wilber, go to the gym, if with the energetic body, go to Tai-Chi, Qi-Gong, whatever, but one thing at a time - Tai-Chi mixed with weight-lifting and Zen meditation, at the same time, might not be such a good thing... It's really good to know exactly what we're doing at the moment, isn't it? Wink

(of course, I don't know this therapist that was recommended to you, so my remarks might not be related to her at all - they're more general)


Posted by Fred 27 May 2009 04:53 AM

Dear Mt.,

Thanks for your post.
As I said I stopped practicing yoga again, because my pain still increased. The relational setting in dealing with my issues is important, as you said yourself in your earlier post.
I don't know either yet how this therapist works. It's only, I have read things by Osho and though he says good things, in general I didn't like this guy Bhagwan. I notice you have no problems at all with all the approaches you are naming as I probably still have. I think there is still a strong inner resistance or fear because of my background as JW, evangelical, penetcostal. Maybe it is one of my root problems. In contrast this excellent man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LksyAw220ns !!!

That being said, I don't really know yet what kind of approach is appropriate in my case: body, emotional, energetic, mental,...?
Primal integration opens up, while this Pesso therapist adviced me to close in (because of my problems with boundaries!). I think he is right.
Today less pain (because I didn't practice yoga?)!

Fred

Fred,

did you try to see your background as your resource, as something you can use to develop your intimacy with God? I was raised traditional Catholic, and after separating from it and finding my own way, I can see that as a great treasure - e.g. in my experience of Mary I can find treasures of Polish devotion to our Holy Queen and see them anew. Perhaps, it would be interesting if you, instead of seeing your background as "fundamentalist" and narrow-minded, tried to look at it differently. But only if this background is not charged with difficult emotions (it usually is for a long time).

You write I don't have problems with this stuff (yoga, Tai-Chi). Well, if I hear about Osho, I certainly have a problem with him He is far from I consider to be healthy spirituality. And you know I finally gave up Zen. So I had problems, I just needed time to see their meaning and make my own decisions. But yoga works very good for me. I don't do pranayama, only asanas in a very moderate and mindful way, it helps k flow smoothly, and certain positions cool my brain when necessary. So I don't have problems in terms of physical or energetic disturbance due to yoga. When I do something like Tai-Chi, occasionally, I found it very pleasant, too.

You describe your "shopping"... You know what I think - that you probably have a lot of experience with body-work - you must know a lot of useful exercises. I'm sure you can pick one or two that make you feel better and ease the pain. Maybe this is what your therapist meant by "integrating the body", not necessarily some big project of physical training?

Dear Mt.,

Are you the Polish Mateusz on this site???
In the meantime I looked up the site of this new therapist and it is much more than this Osho-stuff. It is all about emotional body work (bio-energetics, dance, encounter, movement, ...), but this is different from Pesso, in which there is no manipulation or working from the outside but everything happens from the inside (indididual and in group).
Indeed, I have learned a lot mostly INTELLECTUALLY (I think, haha) throughout all those years, but I don't FEEL free. It wasn't an intellectual game, but it became I suppose an addiction. Therefore I am pondering over this 'spiritual pride' thread!!!
And if I do some yoga again it will be very gentle and not with this CD which is a little above my head...Also pranayama is seemingly a very profound practice...

Greetings,
Fred

You come seeking My insight, yet I say to you I am your all in all—I am already in all you do and say. You never have to look for My direction and grace for didn't I promise I would never leave you or forsake you? Do not increase your fretting trying to find Me or seek additional directions. I know what you need when you need it, and exactly what you need it for.

I would long that you merely seek the rest of coming into and being in My presence. It is there we can commune—where you will find peace, joy, wisdom, healing, direction—anything of the abundance of My flow in your life. Often it is when you strive to hear from Me that you will miss out on what I want to say. I always long to connect at the inner depths and it is a challenge for you to hear Me when you exert the control and are not a surrendered vessel, open to My truth, My light.

Do what it takes in the natural for you to find peace for I am never too far from My created world that you cannot find Me there. Sometimes a walk, or a drive or some other less concentrated act can bring you to the door of our communing. Go there if need be. For every prayer time is simply the time where I desire to connect to you intimately, My beloved.

I always want our times together to go both ways for though you have much to say to Me, I have so much more I long to impart in you to bring you deeply to the place of being like Jesus, to share in this awesome love of the Trinity that knows no limit. I have a waterfall of love for you, of the riches of My grace—every time we commune—which is all the time, but, in our more intimate times together in prayer, praise and worship. I want you to know it, to sense it, to feel it, experience it—to know the love of God which surpasses all human understanding. Then, you will know I am a real and present God, alive and well and as close as your heart. Others will see this in you and will desire what you are. Share with them your good news and let us work together to share the Kingdom of My love.

quote:

...I think that because the source of most of our problems is our relationship with our parents, who weren't perfect (how could they be?) and often didn't do their job as they should, our healing also comes through relationship. I think that God can heal us in an instant if he wants to, but he rather lets us experience the whole process of healing, which isn't always quick or easy. I noticed that, even though relationship with God and with Virgin Mary sustains me, heals me and gives me a lot of support, it isn't necessarily as therapeutic as a relationship with a therapist. … Therapeutic relationship should be based on acceptance to such degree as to undo our previous experiences, where we had to be this or that to be loved.

Dear Mt. and Fred,

You are so right here, Mt.

A little reflection on that...While there is certainly an element of suffering which is necessary and deeply mystical in significance, there is also the possibility of unconscious determinants which make suffering gratifying in neurotic ways, ways in which one is needlessly suffering and impedes spiritual growth. The typical student of psychoanalysis quickly learns that many patients unconsciously resist treatment because their suffering is a much-needed piece of their personality which keeps them “glued together,” so to speak.
Unconditional acceptance and love in a therapeutic relationship is important and an overarching principle in psychotherapy. In addition to “unconditional positive regard” as Carl Rogers called it, and built his treatment modality around, we human creatures must also contend with a variety of unsavory impulses, management of overwhelming affects, negotiate self and other boundaries, integration of unconscious conflict and trauma based on our unique development . These issues require more than love. This is where Rogers hands off the baton to Freud and the self and object relations psychologists which build upon his foundational discoveries and techniques.
Feeling loved or at least cared about by your therapist allows you to trust and endure the hard work of overcoming resistance to deeper work required for uprooting of deeper pain and lasting change . We start with empathy and love, but skill and knowledge of trauma/loss, personality development, and technique are also important. For this, imo, one needs a trained psychoanalytic therapist, which I’ve recommended elsewhere to Fred. Why? Because it’s the only treatment that I know of which takes into account the whole personality make-up, especially the resistance to change-issues, and deeper issues of fear, insecurity, perfectionism, childhood deprivation and loss, boundary problems, conflicting impulses, “shopping for therapies,” etc. which Fred has mentioned.

One can get one’s spiritual needs met through the Body of Christ, prayer, retreats, fellowship with God’s people, studying God’s Word, the sacraments, etc. IMO, it’s important to find a therapist who is not antagonistic to Christ, but he/she doesn’t have to be Christian per se in order for one to benefit from treatment. My own analyst was not overtly Christian with me, but I knew he loved me through his work. I was very moved when I heard him say once: "My way changing the world for the better is to do it one patient at a time.” Most therapists are motivated by a great love for people and recognize that their profession is a healing art.

Plus, psychoanalysts have the important ingredient of having been analyzed themselves and so the risk of their blind-spots interfering with their patient's healing is minimized.

God’s love be with you,
Shasha

On the side of a God-sent suffering, here's a quote from Dubay on "Conditions for Growth" in The Fire Within.

"I cannot recall a single case in which a directee has reached a lofty infused prayer without having suffered much and well." p. 127.

I haven't read as of yet, what Dubay means by suffering "well." I imagine it means discerning how to respond to suffering, which would include reasonable effort to obtain relief in addition to learning what the pain is teaching you perhaps.

(Thank you, w.c., for recommending this great book.)

quote:

I cannot recall a single case in which a directee has reached a lofty infused prayer without having suffered much and well.

Dubay for me is saying that to suffer much and well, is our ability and willingness to enter into our suffering and face our pain, our contractedness, our separation from God, then, as all suffering ceases, we discover that we are no longer practicing meditation, but are infused by God.



From someone who spent a large amount of my life ‘suffering’, I had a lot of investment in this suffering until by grace I had no choice but to enter into it. I still have a difficulty about God-sent suffering. But that’s for another day.

I haven’t read The Fire Within yet, but will do so. It sounds like an excellent book.

Robert August Masters’ latest book Meeting the Dragon: Ending our Suffering by Entering our Pain is a very poetic easy read on ceasing our suffering while not spiritually bypassing.

quote:

Originally posted by Clare:

quote:

I cannot recall a single case in which a directee has reached a lofty infused prayer without having suffered much and well.

Dubay for me is saying that to suffer much and well, is our ability and willingness to enter into our suffering and face our pain, our contractedness, our separation from God, then, as all suffering ceases, we discover that we are no longer practicing meditation, but are infused by God.

Yes, I see this is a good beginning to what he means, but the issue is so complex, to me anyway. Facing our pain, for instance, can mean so many different things and vary across situations: 1) accept the pain because it's out of our control; 2) accept the pain as a mystery; 3) face the pain and go after healing; 4) face the pain as a "wound inflicted by divine justice." , and so forth.

In listening to people's stories of suffering, one can sometimes detect one element of their pain which fits into one category (above) while another element of their pain clearly belongs to another category. I recall sitting with a person recently who shared about their grief over losing their spouse. I felt like I was sitting before a beautifully unfolding mystery and that I was not supposed to 'do anything' to fix or alleviate much of their suffering. Couldn't explain it, but it felt like God's hand crafting the soul.

Please feel free to share more about how you grapple with God-sent suffering...

Peace, Shasha

I don't grapple with God sent suffering. I don't believe in God sent suffering.

quote:

Originally posted by Clare:
I don't grapple with God sent suffering. I don't believe in God sent suffering.

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I misunderstood your comment on the other post about your "difficulty" with God-sent suffering.

Anyway, God's peace be with you,

Shasha

w.c.--As far the list of things you're not in charge of...no control at all with the first one? Are you sure?

w.c.--Your post was insightful. Please take no offense.

ROFLMAO!!

That's too funny for a moderator to delete!

The jokes on me, so to speak . . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Clare:
I don't grapple with God sent suffering. I don't believe in God sent suffering.

hello,

iam new to this... so i am not sure if this is the place to post personal experience with the suffering that i experience in taking care/caregiving for my husband. it splits my heart open when he is in pain and tears...and
on the days he is pain free and only needs meals meds etc. resentment might rise inside...i'm pretty much a glorious ruin. back to the forum that stirred...i ask. ok i agree with clare if God is sending our suffering that irks me and makes me want to box...however, he is allowing this crippling disease to take it's toll. can anyone explain the difference between God sent and God allowing.

W.C.

Thank-you. Your words touch my heart. "He experiences every last drop of human pain."

That sentence alone encourages, not that I want Jesus to suffer anymore, no no. However, to be reminded that He suffers with us, brings a tender response inside of me. It is odd how I forget to remember what I once held close. The sorrow I feel (at times) clouds truth.

"He also knows the mysterios causes and roots of it, and how those are interwoven with our limited freedom and fallenness and the distorted yearnings reaching back centuries within our own families."

Again, what you say is like a gentle wake up to remember who He is...And what he spoke in Isaiah 40...There is no searching of His understanding, which you said eloquently in your post.

My husband suffers from ankylosing spondylitis, diabetes, psoriatic arthritis,rheumatoid arthritis(RA) high blood pressure due to predisone.
He was 5'11" when we married 21 years ago, today he is 5'1. The A.S. curved his spine slowly over the years...He is only 57 years old, such a prince of a man, without bitterness, yes he grieves all the losses that have come and he is sad...but such a kind soul.

Have I said too much? Not sure what the rules are here, I assume I should stick only to my story here right?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w.c.:
My suffering has been mostly emotional, due to an abysmal childhood.

That you suffered as a child, makes me weep, I know that the fallout from childhood abuse takes a lifetime to heal.

Dear Gail--I'm moved by your compassionate description of your husband and the circumstances you share with him. Both you and w.c. have given us all some things to remember. If you do find yourself looking for a book on pain, may I recommend The Gift of Pain by Dr. Paul Brand? You can find reader reviews at amazon.com under that title. I'm sorry I have nothing to offer but a book, but Dr. Brand's account of his life experiences helped me.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
Gail:

That is so much loss for him and you. But you two must have discovered a deep love going through all you've experienced together. We often get caught up in love=comfort, a reduction of love to emotion, and then when suffering comes assume love is gone. I'm so prone to this, but seeing it more clearly.

You are so articulate, please know I appreciate the depth of insight you offer.
Yes, we have discovered deep love for one another... If we had let our love be ruled by emotion we would have called it quits. Staying in the suffering together has been many things, some good, some not so good. I think I can say from experience that the soil our deeper love has grown in is the soil of struggle.
I some times wonder if I was born to struggle...jeesh, I guess we all are in that boat only in different seas.

I'm not sure if you and your husband are open to complimentary-alternative medicine, but there might be some value and hope there. I'm not a doctor, but can link you to some physicians and other web resources to consider this possibility, if you like.

I appreciate your willingness to offer the links, he is not open, so worn down from all the meds. Dr.appts.surgeries, now handicapped lifestyle...Gail

"I guess we are all in that boat only in different seas."

Yes . . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Ariel Jaffe:
Dear Gail--I'm moved by your compassionate description of your husband and the circumstances you share with him. Both you and w.c. have given us all some things to remember. If you do find yourself looking for a book on pain, may I recommend The Gift of Pain by Dr. Paul Brand? You can find reader reviews at amazon.com under that title. I'm sorry I have nothing to offer but a book, but Dr. Brand's account of his life experiences helped me.

Dear Ariel Jaffe,
Bless You. The kindness behind your offer is lovely...I read Dr. Brand's story years ago, along with C.S Lewis and many others. Maybe I need to browse my bookshelf...Gail

Here's a teaching from Brother Lawrence, who is known for his book, "The Practice of the Presence of God" (it's free on the Ethereal Christian Classics website). While de Caussade doesn't quite come out and say that God sends suffering for our good, he does make the point that we ought to accept inevitable, inescapable suffering as though this were the case. E.g.

quote:

I do not pray that you may be delivered from your pains; but I pray GOD earnestly that He would give you strength and patience to bear them as long as He pleases. Comfort yourself with Him who holds you fastened to the cross: He will loose you when He thinks fit. Happy those who suffer with Him: accustom yourself to suffer in that manner, and seek from Him the strength to endure as much, and as long, as He shall judge to be necessary for you. The men of the world do not comprehend these truths, nor is it to be wondered at, since they suffer like what they are, and not like Christians: they consider sickness as a pain to nature, and not as a favour from GOD; and seeing it only in that light, they find nothing in it but grief and distress. But those who consider sickness as coming from the hand of GOD, as the effects of His mercy, and the means which He employs for their salvation, commonly find in it great sweetness and sensible consolation.
- 11th Letter - to one who is in great pain.

One of the great things about Christianity is our recognition that God is with us in our suffering -- even empathically suffers with us. There is a unique consolation to be found in this, especially if we invite Him into our pain.

Friends, we do not really know what is necessary for our ongoing transformation. God does, however, and it seems that suffering and hardship are one of the ways we are opened to depths of humility, faith, trust and compassion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
- 11th Letter - to one who is in great pain.

Friends, we do not really know what is necessary for our ongoing transformation. God does, however, and it seems that suffering and hardship are one of the ways we are opened to depths of humility, faith, trust and compassion.

Dear Phil,

What a gift your web site has been... I went to the link, what a wonderful resource, Thank-you. O, how I wish that my husband could have heard of this years ago.

Quote; "I wish you could convince yourself that GOD is often (in some sense) nearer to us and more effectually present with us, in sickness than in health. Rely upon no other Physician, for, according to my apprehension, He reserves your cure to Himself. Put then all your trust in Him, and you will soon find the effects of it in your recovery, which we often retard, by putting greater confidence in physic than in GOD.

Whatever remedies you make use of, they will succeed only so far as He permits. When pains come from GOD, He only can cure them. He often sends diseases of the body, to cure those of the soul. Comfort yourself with the sovereign Physician both of soul and body."



As I wrote earlier, my dear man, is not bitter about his condition, IMO, the more he goes through, the sweeter he becomes. However, he has lost his desire to seek the Lord.

I can't help but speculate that one of the many reasons he lost his desire to actively seek God, was due to the theology, that it is never God's will for any to be sick. (I will be as brief as possible here)
About 15 years ago, we climbed on the name it and claim it, believe it and you will receive it bandwagon. I can't count the times he was anointed with oil, demons were supposedly cast out with proclamations that he was healed, to no avail.

Please hear me, I am not saying that God does not heal people...He does. It just hurts when it is implied that one is not healed due to their lack of faith. So, maybe you can understand my deep gratitude for what y'all offer here.

We have traversed the landscape of different denominations for the past 20 some years, landed in the Episcopal church... But, I must say I love what I am learning here and on EWTN or is it ETWN?
Gail

Another way of looking at this is:

We'll go on trying and doing our best, attempting to be Creators, mixed in with some good intentions, shadows, yearnings, much of which we're unconscious of, and this isn't something we can stop either. If we try to stop it, we're just fooling ourselves and re-inventing our willfulness. We can meditate all we want, but we can't willfully burn ourselves out. We re-create our dilemma over and over again, as we don't want the option which we can't create from our own powers.

This is why, even when we "surrender," we often end up in shame, or subtle self-reproach, as we can't really surrender; it's not one of our true powers. What we end up doing is abdicating our will and reinforcing shame and all the fallen tendencies. And if we never had parents who let us fall apart within the presence of their imperfect love when we were little (before the mind completely assumes its fictitous role), we are even more prone to shame, which is really just a form of pride we can't escape.

I would say that the only quality partly derived from the soul's faculties that isn't so self-abortive is gratitude. You can't fake gratitude even to yourself. It's real or it's a sham.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
Gail:

It sounds like your husband is having to unlearn as we all must, but has undergone this unravelling process much more deeply than most, or a good period of time prior to the death bed melting away of pride and fear. The way you describe him is as someone whose come into a mostly genuinely humble state, where true meekness can develop. Nobody would, or could, go into that rawness on their on their own. How could we? If God took away our pain, how would we unravel through Grace into true humility? We'd just go on our way attempting to do or be more than mortals can! Our longings don't bring us to ourselves as the Source. And so the pain that holds our distorted longings also holds the opening to what is beyond our own powers. If He took away our pain, He'd be shutting us off from Him. How could we otherwise learn/unlearn to trust a process which isn't within our own knowing or doing?


So thanks to your husband for the gift he brings us all: a look into the terrible mirror of truth and grace.

w.c.

There is much that I want to respond to in what you have said, yet I will keep it to minimum, I want take some time to ponder the richness of what you have offered.

I love that you can put to words what I have witnessed happening in my husbands life/heart...

I marvel at his humility and meekness. Yes, there has been a melting away of his pride & fear. All this has happened naturally,(of course with much physicall suffering) without him striving to be more like Christ. Sad, to admit, that I'm the one who has wanted him to hide his 110 lb. bent frame behind clothes (we live on lake in summer) from the eyes of others...Or to cover the open sores, or not leave his scabs (on our) or our friends furniture. I realize that is my own shame at work. What you say is the truth, he does bring a gift, people love sitting & talking with him. We have these big muscled macho men who cannot do enough for us. They even kiss him at times. So, I just sit here and marvel at the grace that God is pouring out on my sweetheart

Quote: How could we come to this end, and to Him, if He took away our suffering? In a horrible sense, if He took away our suffering, we'd never come to the end of ourselves before death, and never know how much deeper His love is than any creaturely comfort.

Dear W.C.,


I want to respond to all... of what you have said... my heart is literally overflowing. I will keep it to minimum, I want take some time to ponder the richness of what you have offered.

I love that you can put to words what I have witnessed happening in my husbands life/heart...

I marvel at his humility and meekness. And yes, there has been a melting away of his pride & fear. All this has happened naturally,(of course with much physical suffering) without him striving to be more like Christ.

Sad or ashamed to admit, that I'm the one who has wanted him to hide his 110 lb. bent frame behind clothes (we live on lake in summer) from the eyes of others...Or to cover the open sores, or not leave his scabs (on our) or our friends furniture. I realize that is my own shame at work and I grieve that I feel this way at times...Because I love him.



What you say is the truth, he does bring a gift, people love sitting & talking with him. We have these big muscled macho men who cannot do enough for us. They even kiss him at times. So, I just sit here and marvel at the grace that God is pouring out on my sweetheart, while praying that His refining fires will burn up my shallowness.



Quote: How could we come to this end, and to Him, if He took away our suffering? In a horrible sense, if He took away our suffering, we'd never come to the end of ourselves before death, and never know how much deeper His love is than any creaturely comfort.



Indeed, how would we come to this end and to Him...Thank-You, I'm speechless and full of gratitude. Gail