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As a prelude to a critique of McCain, let me open with a response to another correspondent who quizzed me about Buckley's sailing into international waters, long ago, for the purpose of trying marijuana:
So, let's consider the musings of some prudent reasoners: Justin Raimondo on February 27, 2006 quoting Bill Buckley: William F. Buckley Jr. on January 15, 2007 in article Yes or No To Bush? From Lawrence Auster before last presidential election: George F. Will asks, in the Winter 2004, Can We Make Iraq Democratic? George Will. on Feb. 17, 2008, asked: Would McCain be a TR type President? George Will, on July 18, 2006, discusses Transformation's Toll Joe Conason, on February 28, 2008, describes McCain's Political Quagmire In 1997, William Kristol and Robert Kagan, established Project for the New American Century (PNAC). PNAC's goal is "to promote American global leadership." Creating a blueprint for the US' current role in the world, PNAC's original Statement of Principles called for the US to return to a "Reaganite foreign policy of military strength and moral clarity." According to the Foreign Policy Advisory Index : Powell, Armitage and Scowcroft are realists; Kristol and Kagan, neoconservatives. Bill Kristol denies that he�s advising John McCain despite press reports to the contrary. I will next provide an excerpt re: Obama's advisers. |
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The folks who seem to figure most prominently, so far,
on the Obama team are Anthony Lake at Georgetown and Susan Rice from the Brookings Institution . One thing that concerned me a few years ago was Lake's stance toward intervention in the Sudan. Here are other advisors from Foreign Policy Advisory Index :
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As we segue from the other thread re: Candidates 2008, I have reposted the following:
Since this is my signature issue, these considerations will be at the forefront as the General Election nears (I'm guessing Tuesday) Perhaps you saw how McCain's Lebanon decision was parodied a couple of weeks ago?
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Here are links to my essays at my Obama Blog that are war-related and McCain-related:
Conservatives Against the War Iraq & Iran: Questions for McCain Catholic Just War Theory or Why We Need Obama! Iran- a case against war Martin Luther King, Jr or Why We Need Obama Thomas Merton on War or Why We Need Obama |
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In The New Republic, Noam Scheiber writes about The Audacity of Data re: Barack Obama's surprisingly non-ideological policy shop.
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Tucker Carlson, on MSNBC tonight, seemed surprised when Susan Rice said that, in addition to keeping troops in Iraq --- bringing 1 to 2 brigades home per month over 16 months --- in order to protect our embassy and diplomats, a counter-terrorism strike force would also remain there, or in the region, deployed against al Qaeda (via targeted strikes). He asked whether or not Obama's supporters new this.
OK, I have flooded the board, but I don't traffic in cliches and bumper sticker slogans. This is a very serious issue to me. Still, have fun! |
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JB, that's a lot of reading and resource you've shared! I'll be playing "catch-up" for awhile.
But, for starters, what is POTUS? I'm not familiar with that acryonym. You write: OK, I have flooded the board, but I don't traffic in cliches and bumper sticker slogans. This is a very serious issue to me. I know there is substance to your preferred candidate (Obama, for those who didn't know), but what one encounters in the stump speeches and interviews comes across as very cliched. "Change . . . change . . . change!" - - - Re. Iraq, I'm not interested in going over how it all began, what Obama's position, etc. We both agreed that he's being opportunistic, here -- that if it had gone better, he wouldn't be bragging about how he opposed it from the start (dubious that he would have done so as a Senator). I'm not interested in just-war discussions any more, as I don't know that these 4th C. Augustinian principles (which are not official Church teachings) apply very well to 21st C. security risks and humanitarian interventions. Our discussions in the lead-up to Iraq left me with the conclusion that these principles are good to consult with, but are difficult to apply when there are no national armies involved. One can have a military intervention in behalf of justice that is not a just-war intervention. Re. Iraq, I only want to know what the candidates plan to do. Bush has stated that we'll stay until they ask us the leave, this presupposing their ability to care for their own security and allowing for gradual draw-downs, when appropriate. That's responsible. I hear McCain saying the same. I don't hear these considerations from Clinton and Obama; they seem more interested in appeasing the "Bush-lied, people-died, bring-our-troops-home" contingency on the Left, without whose votes they cannot win. Obama even said recently that after pulling out, he might go back in if Al Qaeda has bases or strengthens. McCain ate his lunch on that one, reminding him that AQ is already there and has been the biggest problem. Obama's rejoinder was that they wouldn't be there if we hadn't invaded . . . yada yada yadad -- bratty Left-speak! Honestly, I don't see much maturity or wisdom with regard to national security issues. Glad to hear Susan Rice presenting a more nuanced approach in your post above. The Left won't like it if she/Obama keep this up, however. I'll read some of your links soon, but will be away this weekend leading a seminar. Thank you for sharing your research and reflections, here. Great peace! --- let's use this thread to discuss the candidates from here on. |
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One more thing: I'm rather turned off by all the references to neo-cons, their pictures, etc. The U.S Congress authorized Bush to invade Iraq after studying intelligence that indicated security risks to the U.S. That's what happened. Neocons seem to be the boogeymen of the Left -- as though they have some strange, irresistible influence capable of dragging even people like Kerry, Clinton and Edwards to back Bush. That's ridiculous.
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President of the United States = POTUS Supreme Court = SCOTUS That is the nature of stump speeches, even debates. As a geneal rule, I find that very few people seem interested in much else, but I am inviting all to engage at another level. Even discussion forums are difficult because they tend to gravitate back to cliches. Here, otoh, such as in the run up to the war, there was as much depthful engagement as in most think tanks. Yes, but none of this changes the fact that he was entirely correct, just like our church leaders. When waying the pros and cons, he got it right, just like James Baker et al when they decided against marching to Baghdad in the 1st Gulf War, citing ALL THE SAME REASONS. We discussed this thoroughly on the other thread in the first run up and I concluded that those principles needed to be better nuanced to handle emergent technological realities but, in no way, that they were otherwise inapplicable. They remain, in fact, as an integral part of our otherwise secular military code: reasonable prospect for success; minimize collateral damage; proportionate response; aligned with national security interests; imminent and grave threat; good, actionable intelligence; double-effect reasoning, leaving things better and not worse than we found them; waged by a competent authority with proper jurisdiction; waged as a last resort, having exhausted all other diplomatic and peaceful means; etc etc etc. The nuance that I discussed was how to guage an imminent threat in this age of asymmetrical warfare and how counterterror strategies must cope with this emergent reality, even preemptively. You can dismiss all of this as 4th Century poppycock but that is entirely wrong vis a vis both US Military Code and time-honored Church social justice teaching. So you characterize the Bush-McCain approach as principled and everyone else as governed by expedience. That's the same ad hominem approach you decry re: the neocons. Tu quoque. You cursorily and casually mischaracterize the anti-war thrust as a Lefty movement, when, in fact, poll after poll after poll indicate that an overwhelming majority of Americans want the troops home and despite the fact that I have set out the conservative case against the war, there being a large contingent with the Right who disagree with Bush-McCain? This is a matter of prudential judgment and the matter does not offer the level of clarity that partisans claim, Left or Right. Well, I invite you to engage this at a deeper level than stump speech exchanges. And there you go again with the Left-speak. I don't imagine when you get the chance to engage Bill Buckley and George Will that you will so readily dismiss the arguments using stereotypes? That position has been on his website and he's articulated it in debates, dating back to when there were ten people on the stage. Perhaps you missed them? Google this syntax: +Obama +"strike force" +iraq |
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Yes, I appreciate and understand that. I was turned off by Peter Kreeft's rhetoric and I get turned off by the exessive pejorative force that philosophers employ, one school vs another, even within the Church. Using neocon has become a de facto pejorative it seems? just like calling someone a lefty? when, in fact, people wear these ideological labels proudly. I am more of a paleocon in many ways, a more libertarian Republican type. But I am not an ideologue, I don't think. And, while it may be true that neocons are the bogeyman of the Left, you seem to ignore the fact that much of the Right cannot countenance their approach either. I have said it over and over that they are violating subsidiarity principles vis a vis foreign policy. My objection is principled and not based on political expedience. Sometimes I vote for this party; sometimes the other. While the just war deliberations were problematical and a just war case WAS MADE, we are talking here about good prudential judgment and not, rather, critiquing anyone's moral reasoning or values or ends. I mentioned in recent days how much I like Bill Kristol, and I also like Charles Krauthammer and Fred Barnes, and I listen to Rush sometimes, and read Ann Coulter. But I also read Madeline Albright and E.J. Dionne and Jim Wallis. I try to grab the wheat and leave the chaff. There were all sorts of reasons and rationales to go or not go to war and that prudential decision hung in the balance; at least it did for me, coming down to the quality of our intellignece estimates, in which case I was way wrong of course. I have little doubt that it was the neoconservative influence that ended up tipping the scales of this otherwise delicately balanced deliberative process and that, had they been marginalized and not rather the Realist cohort, there would have been a different outcome and a different decision. Further, there would have been a different set of perceptual filters and biases in play in both evaluating the facts and in putting together a marketing presentation to the Congress, the public and the UN. This was not, in my view, some nefarious dynamic or cynical ploy on their part; it was, rather, badly misguided by a mindset that erroneously believes in proactively democratizing the world via militaristic regime change strategies. VIOLATION of subsidiarity. INCOHERENT via conservativism. So, yes, this is not wholly about the past but about the future: This mindset needs to be marginalized, in my view, AND in the view of many from both the LEFT (your bogeyman) and the RIGHT. McCain is part of that problem. Obama is part of the solution. Politcal lampoons are fun and cartoons are better. |
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JB, I have a brief break and read your posts in my email notifications. No time to respond to all the points you make (I feel "straw-manned" in a few of them), except to say that Obama is lucky to have such a thoughtful and enthusiastic supporter in you.
One small point and then one question: 1. There is a political Left in this country and they're strong backers of Obama. E.g., moveon.org, which has a large membership. I don't think he'll get elected without their support, and I do believe he throws red meat out to them. That's my perception from some of the language he uses, and I don't think I'm reading more into it than there is. 2. There's not much difference between the policies Obama and Clinton recommend in all areas. Given that, plus your obvious respect for McCain, just what, exactly, is it that you find more appealing in Obama? I know you've written a lot about it already, but how about a 150 word "man on the street interview" summary. Here's the mic! |
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Well, I sent someone, yesterday, what I call my Cliff Notes for Obama, if that'll suffice:
So, they have their reasons and I have mine. Obama doesn't have a monopoly on pandering. McCain doesn't have a monopoly on virtue. These folks all have their weaknesses, none fatal in my assessment of character, so far. My overriding concern, then, is to marginalize neoconservative influence in the White House, to purge it from US Foreign Policy. Truth be known, Clinton would not be much of an improvement here. She is an old hawk who has indeed been governed by political expedience in her approach to Iraq, in my view. Also, on principle, domestically, I was not happy with such Bushian initiatives as No Child Left Behind (Dubya) and Americans with Disabilities Act (G.H.W.B.), seeing them as a violation of federalism. At the same time, McCain was right about not voting for tax cuts in a time of war, not inviting all Americans to sacrifice, given the enormity of the challenge. As for this tax rebate: TOTAL GARBAGE and ALL are pandering. So, I'm all over the map but the most pressing issue is our foreign policy posture, in general, and not especially Iraq, in particular. As I said, I think events on the ground, both politically and militarily, will more or less dictate our response and disengagement (getting out of the ditch), no matter who is in office. What we do going forward with the rest of the world and its axis of weasels should be guided by a Realist foreign policy (keeping us out the ditch), i.e. NOT John Teddy Roosevelt-Woodrow Wilson McCain and his neoconservative friends. Sorry if I straw-manned you. I'm not habitually given to fallacy I'm pretty sure that very little of what I am writing this week is really, truly my own thoughts. I feel like I am channelling someone ... wait ... wait ... wait ... I can hear him now ... ... he is saying ...
Dang! I just woke up. Who wrote all this stuff? I'll have to Google it and see who's misappropriated my faculties from the other side! PAX! (is what this is all about) jb |
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erratum, when I wrote: One thing that concerned me a few years ago was Lake's stance toward intervention in the Sudan.
that s/h/b Rice's stance |
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I've written an essay about how such principles apply analogically to any interdiction of another's behavior, including even parenting. There was no more lunch available to be eaten by anyone in that exchange than there was when McCain said it would be okay with him if we had troops there for 100 years. Of course stump speech and debate sound bites always end up needing to be fleshed out with more substantive nuance and both of these guys know they're attacking caricatures of each others' positions when they engage in this type of exchange. I knew what Obama meant. I knew what McCain meant. I am really not interested in this type of analysis after every little tit for tat bit of demagoguery by either side. If there is a major and substantive gaffe that is truly revealing, not to worry, it won't go away; it'll get front and center and stay there and have an effect on the outcome. Otherwise, fooey on this type of stuff. There is a danger that folks will only engage candidacies superficially and that is why so many of these 30 second commercials work. Sad but true. There is danger of taking what is inconsequential and overanalyzing it and thinking that it represents in-depth analysis and this is what many of the TV talking heads do and radio-talk, too. Sad but true. I hope to offer the Goldilocks, just-right, approach to a meaningful engagement of positions and assesment of who will be in these administrations and influencing them. And that involves looking at more than the individual candidates with their foibles and pecadilloes, and more than even assessing their own personal strengths and weaknesses, competence, leadership, experience and so on. Those are important but they are not, any one of them, sufficient. Just some general musing here; not an over against your other points. |
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JB wrote: My overriding concern, then, is to marginalize neoconservative influence in the White House, to purge it from US Foreign Policy.
More on the dreaded "neo-cons." I don't get it, truly I don't. All this time I've been under the impression that the foreign policy of the White House was under the direction of Secretaries of State -- Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice, during the past 8 years. Neocons? Hardly! ------- Now my man-on-the street reply to the question of who I support: I'm still listening. There are over 8 months to go and I'm especially interested in the debates to come. I loathe the way the Democrat Party has become aligned with abortion rights, so much so that they can't even bring themselves to place a restriction on partial-birth procedures. Republicans are generally more in line with my own views on this and other areas: - more faithful to subsidiarity principles by promoting initiatives in the private sector - reducing taxes - smaller government - reducing government spending (Bush blew this one) - strong national defense - strong, aggressive stand against Islamic terrorists All of the candidates seem to recognize the importance of addressing immigration issues, Social Security, and health insurance. I'm listening. Over 8 months to go. I'll not be posting as often on this thread henceforth. P.S. Great quotes by Buckley. |
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I'll come back to this. For now, I'm trying to think of a funny retort. But I cannot think of anything, yet, that is as funny as your response. |
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Well put. That captures my own overall thrust for the most part. The only amendments I would offer: 1) strong, aggressive stand against Islamic terrorists (Bush blew this one) 2) seamless garment of life (Religious Right blew this one) I need to take a break, too. I ain't much on daily tit for tat politics. I'm into analysis of major thrusts. Not much I haven't already said there. |
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I'm a HUGE fan of Frasier! |
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JB noted:
1. Is Islamic terrorism stronger now than it was 8 yrs. ago? Are the prospects for its demise stronger? My sense is that Bush has driven it into the boondocks. Also, we haven't been attacked again since 9/11. I'm not doubting that other strategies could have been more effective, but I surely don't think that "Bush blew this one." 2. The "Religious Right" has not been in power. And any political party supporting abortion rights (as the Democrat Party) can't lay much claim to a "seamless garment" of ethical considerations. All things considered, I believe the Republicans have been more faithful to this principle than Democrats. |
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1. Bush blew it precisely because other strategies would have been more effective and less counterproductive. 2. The Religious Right blew it precisely because they were not in power, which is to suggest that they were not in power because they did not practice the time-honored Catholic approach of political realism. They could have wielded influence had they better strategized, but they squandered the opportunity to promote other worthwhile agenda due to their narrow focus, often confusing ends and means, goals and stratgeies, and often due to their inefficacious and illicit theocratic urges. |
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Well, that's a matter of opinion, of course. Maybe, maybe not. But "blowing it" is too strong, considering the successes that have taken place. |
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Time will tell; I'm hopeful. I'm becoming a hopemonger, as you know. |
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Yes, time will tell. I am hopeful for Iraq, however. There's been good progress this year.
----- JB, not that you haven't addressed some of these issues already, but . . . here's a list of the kinds of questions most conservatives (self included) have for Obama? I suspect this list will find its way to the McCain campaign and some of these issues will come up should the two ever debate. It's a good list, though some questions are less important than others. I especially like the ones I'll quote below. - see http://article.nationalreview....ZTkxYmUwZWNlNDY1NTY=
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Perhaps YOU'd like to go through the mental exercise of arguing from Obama's perspective and provide the best answers and rejoinders that he could come up with using your own words? It does one's brain cells good, and beefs up one's arguments, to play devil's advocate with one's own positions every now and then. At any rate, both you and Obama would be so lucky to have Johnboy provide the answers to these questions and more! I have a few for John ... bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran (sung to the tune of the Beach Boys' Barbara Ann) ... McCain, too! Let me say this, I have mentioned before that the differences between these candidates' positions re: Iraq withdrawal timetables and strategies are probably exaggerated for campagin purposes, especially since conditions on the ground and political realities (let's hope good realities and there is some reason to be hopeful) will likely largely dictate what happens between now and end of year 2010. In the same vein, I am suspecting that my concern about McCain being a loose cannon vis a vis neoconservative leanings and influence (which I know you see - albeit erroneously - as faux influence) regarding such as his disposition toward Iran, for example, could be a tad exaggerated, too, especially once considering that such a mindset and tendency has been so roundly criticized and severely chastized almost universally (and I mean "universally" literally). I am grateful for the wisdom of our founders and the checks and balances that so often keep DC in gridlock, the authentic conservative's dream scenario |
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And all of that was my way of saying that I need a break and have already engaged this POTUS race at the level and in a way that interests and suits me, which does not involve letting you play Tim Russert.
pax! jb Recent finance reports from the candidates for President revealed that Barack Obama paid $1,700 for a band called Double Funk Crunch to play in California and John McCain paid $1,600 for a group called the Mad Bavarian Brass Band to play in New Hampshire. |
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