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Shalom Place Community Shalom Place Discussion Groups General Discussion Forums Religion and Culture Are the Archbishops going too far?|
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| Are the Archbishops going too far?
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| <HeartPrayer>
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Here is a link to a more complete story on Fox News.
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Whether you agree with the Archbishops or not, why do you feel so strongly about what they said? |
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| <HeartPrayer>
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Mr Wuerl and Mr Chaput are allowing themselves to pass public judgment on fellow Christians -- and very visible politicians at that. That is not an allowable role for an Archbishop; it would be arrogant of any Christian; for any Church (or church) official to do so violates the separation of Church and State. If Mr Wuerl and Mr Chaput wish to speak out on the issue, that�s fine. If they wish to loudly disagree with Pelosi and Biden, fine. But for them to personally attack them in this manner is simply not tolerable. |
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HP:
I am not sure I quite see it the way you are seeing it, but I am really impressed that you cited a Fox News report for this story - next thing you know, you'll be quoting the National Review, AKA Pravda West!  |
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HP, this is nothing new. The Pelosi incident is especially understandable, as she stated in a recent interview that the Church's teaching on abortion was ambiguous.
- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,411101,00.html Catholic teaching considers abortion a grave offense. For a Catholic political leader to adopt a pro-choice stance is a serious matter, and that is what the bishops are highlighting. |
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I think this is the reason for controversy, Phil. Private dissent is something no one will pay very much attention to. After all, with a billion Catholics, there are bound to be mutterings in the corridor. At the other extreme would be, say, a priest or a teacher in a seminary putting forth dissenting views and pretending that those views represented the actual teachings of the Church. That would be a no no. This business of political leaders advertising themselves as Catholic but then putting forth non-Catholic views is somewhere in between. It's also quite new . . . I think? (By new, I mean something new within the last 30 or 40 years.) Politicians aren't official representatives of the Church. But then again their remarks aren't exactly private. |
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Right, Derek. Not only are their remarks public, but the policies they pass have enormous moral implications.
The position taken by pro-choice Catholic Democrats like Biden and Kerry has been to say that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, that there's a plurality of opinions on when life begins in the culture, and that they think it wrong to wish to legislatively impose their viewpoints on others. (One wonders if laws about slavery would have ever changed with this kind of attitude?) Their bottom line: if you think abortion is wrong, don't have one. Of course, this relieves them of the responsibility of actually taking a position -- except as a personal stance -- and allows "pro-choice" to remain the default law of the land. What the bishops are asking of Catholic leaders is to show a little more spine -- to try to at least do something to legally restrict abortion rights. Biden, Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi and other Catholic leaders on the Hill have done nothing of the sort, but have, instead, opposed any and all restrictive legislative attempts. Thus do they show themselves to be more in accord with their pro-choice support base than Catholic values, which is why the bishops point out their lack of communion with the Church on this point. Pelosi's recent comments are a whole other matter. It's one thing to vote pro-choice but another to publicly state that the Church's position on abortion is ambiguous and unsettled. Here she demonstrates her ignorance of Catholic teaching on this point, which is unexcusable. |
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| <HeartPrayer>
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Where is the Church outrage against capital punishment?
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil, I seem to recall a lengthy exchange between you and Johnboy over the clarity / constancy of the Church position on when life starts, and at what point the germinating life is a human being. I have nothing to add to that in-depth and intelligent discussion, but I do not think the Archbishops are entirely on the mark. Furthermore, a lot of Catholic politicians, Catholic judges and Catholic district attorneys are in favour of the Death Penalty, despite the crystal-clear Sixth Commandment: "Thou shalt not kill". I do not recall American Archbishops censoring judges, DAs or politicians for their stance on that issue! Have you heard of a Judge who has handed down a death penalty being publicly censored by an Archbishop who in essence tells her/him not to show up for communion? I haven�t -- much as I might like to see it happen. -- HeartPrayer |
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HP:
I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think this is apples and oranges. |
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HP, there's nothing from the exchanges between JB and I that should be construed as ambiguity concerning Church teaching on abortion. JB was taking something of a "devil's advocate" approach in pointing out that politicians have to consider the plurality of opinions in a culture. When it comes to Catholic teaching, however, the teaching of the Church on the beginning of human life is clear.
Re. "Thou shalt not kill," the Church allows for this in cases of self-defense, and has, historically, condoned the death penalty in the name of both justice and self-defense. Here's the straight scoop from the Catechism: So, yes, the tendency now is to say that the death penalty can no longer be justified. I'm not aware of Catholic politicians making a big fuss to have it instated, however, so there's not much need for bishops to come down hard on them. Abortion, however, is different: That's not an ambiguous teaching. Nancy Pelosi should know what the Church teaches. - - - I guess I'm wondering, with AMH, why this all seems to bother you so much? |
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Pelosi seems to have dug in her heels, which has prompted letters from yet more bishops:
- http://apnews.myway.com/articl...80828/D92R51M81.html |
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The Bishop of Providence has apparently informed Rep. Patrick Kennedy that he should not be receiving Communion.
- http://www.projo.com/news/john...OLP_v17.38abb89.html See http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...us_ri_bishop_kennedy for an example of Kennedy's pro-choice advocacy and he criticism of the Church for its abortion stance. No Catholic politician ought to be "advocating" abortion rights. If they aren't comfortable taking an anti-abortion position, then they ought to remain silent on the topic. Taking the position that to oppose abortion is to promote Catholicism ignores the fact that abortion is condemned by Church leaders on the basis of principles that aren't specifically Catholic or religious, and which are widely held by non-religious people as well. |
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I am not sure what the issue is here. The Catholic leadership has been very conservative on this point since the 90's and has tried to squash dissent especially on the issue of abortion. Most Churches believe that abortion is wrong as a method of birth control but allow for a wide range of views on the topic. I am Episcopalian and would say it can be used in some cases especially rape and incest.
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ShalomPlace.com Shalom Place Community Shalom Place Discussion Groups General Discussion Forums Religion and Culture Are the Archbishops going too far?
Shalom Place Community Shalom Place Discussion Groups General Discussion Forums Religion and Culture Are the Archbishops going too far?