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And so Russia has attacked Georgia -- an unjust act of aggression, undertaken without U.N. approval and so "illegal," during the Olympic games (to call attention to themselves? -- hey, what was the hurry?).
Where are the organized marchers in Europe and around the world? And guess which country has already devoted its resources to humanitarian aid? |
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I agree with HeartPrayer that it is Georgia that initiated the aggressive attacks on the Ossetian peacekeepers. There are always two sides to a story. I keep informed with our news reports, and do check other sources. Pravda is one of these.
http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia.-603/ |
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| <HeartPrayer>
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Peacekeepers?
I know that�s what the Russians like to call the forces they sent to Sout Ossetia, but I hardly thinks that�s accurate. I have no illusions about their "benevolence". So I don�t know if your post is meant tongue-in-cheek. What Georgia did do, however was to send its military into Tskhinvali and bomb the city, which resulted in considerable civilian casualties. At present we don�t know exactly how many. And let me correct the date I gave: it was the 7th of August, not the 8th. Thank God Georgia was not a NATO member at the time, or this crisis might be even greater. The US government has wisely abstained from getting more heavily involved in Saakashvili�s exceedingly dangerous game. Thanks for the link, Freebird. I�ve never see the Russian edition of Pravda. Having now done so, I have great trepidation about the rhetoric therein. It reminds me far too much of some of the diatribes in the National Review. |
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Here's an interesting piece from Charles Krauthammer of the National Review.
- http://article.nationalreview....YWU0ZWUxMDA1NzVhZTE= Even dovish types like Barack Obama recognize what's really going on: - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...onflic_n_118276.html - re Pravda. I've just given it a quick look and find it to be mostly a propaganda instrument. Not much critical reflection going on, there. |
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Moscow now intimidates Poland:
- http://www.breitbart.com/artic...R7IG1&show_article=1 I'm not following why a missile defense system in Poland bothers Russia so much, especially if they have no intention of attacking Poland. Why should this expose them to a strike -- 100%? |
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| <HeartPrayer>
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Didn�t the USA actually "break" a well-established treaty with the Soviet Union / Russia, when it initiated its Star Wars defense system?
Why should this expose them to a strike? Well, if my memory serves me right, the whole premise with that such a defense system makes it more possible for one side to launch a First Strike, while defending against the retaliatory strike. And that upsets the balance. It shortens the time response, and -- some have argued -- actually raises the possibility of a nuclear war. It is wise to examine the individual instances where missiles have almost been launched in the last 5 decades. It�s pretty frightening, indeed. |
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Of course, it's always the fault of the USA!
Last time I read up on these matters, Poland was a member of NATO and they participate in NATO defense strategies, including, here, taking a stand against the threat of Iran firing missiles on Europe (a distinct possibility). Also, Russia still has plenty of armed nukes, and who knows when/if some nut will fire one off? Of course, if they to get paranoid and believe that NATO has designs for a first-strike nuclear attack against them, well what can one say? Paranoia is paranoia! - - - No comments on the Russian invasion of Georgia? Anyone? It's hardly possible to defend their behavior, at this point. |
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| <HeartPrayer>
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You�re not responding to my post. There was a treaty in place, and there was a very good reason for that treaty. |
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No - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...istic_Missile_Treaty
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There has been a lot of stuff written on it so far in the media, web, etc. Though it is clearly a disproportionate use of force by the Russians, I agree with the point of view that suggests the US should rethink its position and commitments in this part of the world. We should not be dragged into a local geo conflict with Russia because we have a small non strategic ally fussing with them. This is in Russia's back yard, and they a long history of being paranoid (for good reason) about encroachment of their "borders." This has all the earmarks of something could get of control in a hurry. And though we were looking for support in Iraq, we should not get entangled in this type of commitment with Georgia. The US has never looked favorably on this type of thing in our hemisphere; what would we do if the Russians started to put missiles in Cuba and Venezuela, training their troops, supplying weapons on a larger scale, etc? Frankly, the Europeans, including our lukewarm NATO allies, who are quick to criticize the US for just about everything, should handle this. They have more at stake, from energy security to military issues. At the end of the Cold War, there was talk in Europe of disbanding NATO, anyway. When the Russians started flying bomber patrols and flexing, all of sudden NATO looked pretty good again. We should look hard at all of the post-WWII organizations, most of which we were the main drivers of, and which have become institutionalized in there anti-US bias, and re evaluate all of our obligations. |
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AMH, you noted: This is in Russia's back yard, and they a long history of being paranoid (for good reason) about encroachment of their "borders."
Yes, historically that's true, but not in the last century, where they've been the ones who've not only encroached, but annexed, conquered, etc. That's probably more in Poland's memory than Napoleon's march on Moscow. The US has never looked favorably on this type of thing in our hemisphere; what would we do if the Russians started to put missiles in Cuba and Venezuela, training their troops, supplying weapons on a larger scale, etc? As you recall, they did all these things, and we took a stand. Nevertheless, they helped prop up Cuba until the end of the empire, and we allowed it. Not much to do about Venezuela, either. Frankly, the Europeans, including our lukewarm NATO allies, who are quick to criticize the US for just about everything, should handle this. They have more at stake, from energy security to military issues. I agree completely. Problem is, who among our European allies can help Poland develop a missile shield? Provide them with advanced weaponry? I don't think NATO is worried about Russia attacking old or new Europe as I don't think the Russians could succeed in doing so, at any rate. The errant firing off of a nuke, however, isn't so far-fetched, and neither is a missile attack from Iran: - see http://www.verbix.com/imag/map_indoeuropean.gif and: http://www.iht.com/articles/20...3/15/news/shield.php Poland sits right between Iran and Norway. Seems the Norwegians should be happy to have Poland providing a missile shield. If Russia doesn't like the missile shield, then they can work with NATO to pressure Iran to cease-and-desist from developing WMD and long-range missiles. I don't see much sign of that, however. Of course, much of the impetus for missile shields and the like could well be coming from the military-industrial process. Where's "Spoonboy" when you need him. |
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Phil stated, I agree that the Russians have been aggressive in the past, but let's not forget about WWII, where they lost 20MM soldiers and civilians fighting the Germans, who invaded the Soviet Union after signing off on a non-aggression pact. Stalin clearly was interested in a territorial buffer post WWII, in addition to whatever imperial goals he may have had. -Since the dissolution of the USSR, we have been partnering, mostly for good reasons, with most of the old Eastern bloc/Warsaw Pact members, even encouraging NATO membership. Imagine if this was the other way around, where Russia would be encouraging Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc, to formally ally themselves with Russia. What if Russia said to Mexico we�ll support you as you assert your �rightful� territorial claims and reclaim the American Southwest? My point is this � what are we trying to do and what do we have to gain by provoking the Russians? I know that US policy has been a policy of containing Russia, just as they have tried to do to the US, but this seems to be over the top. Latest headline - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,407262,00.html Russia sees this as a threat � it doesn�t matter if we think that they are irrational and have nothing to fear. If this keeps going, it will turn into a no turning back scenario. If Spoonboy is following any of this, he is already digging his bunker somewhere in the Rocky Mountains! |
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Here's an article from AmCon that makes similar points:
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/aug/25/00013
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AMH, I see your points about Russia's justified paranoia, but the issue with Poland pertains to a missile defense program. I'm not understanding why that's a provocation. Russia's response to this is to threaten Poland with an increased likelihood of nuclear attack.
- http://www.thenational.ae/arti...NG/219177610/-1/NEWS Surely Russia must see how their behavior in Georgia doesn't exactly discourage the Poles from wanting more defenses. Re. the example of Mexico, Panama, etc. going Russia's way had we lost the cold war . . . they likely wouldn't have been democracies as are Eastern European countries, but satellites of the USSR. Huge difference. Russia has to learn to get along with these new democratic governments and not threaten them with a nuclear attack because they plan to put up a missile defense shield which could be used to fend of a variety of foes. |
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VDH's take on where this is going:
http://www.jewishworldreview.c...08/hanson081408.php3 and, and this, which is a "be careful what you wish for" warning to the Left and elite liberals:
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I just think the Russians see this differently than we do. They may also be playing a dangerous game of "chicken" with us, thinking, "what are they going to do, go to a real shooting war over this?" |
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Wishful thinking - in fact, they don't. Is the US/NATO really going to go to war over Georgia, or if Russia invades Ukraine? WWII started when Britain and France went to war with Germany over Poland, and it ended being controlled by the Soviets. |
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"Russia threatens new confrontation over Georgian provinces "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...rgian-provinces.html |
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http://online.wsj.com/article/..._review_and_outlooks
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| <HeartPrayer>
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Which is exactly what I meant. The rest is technicalities and polemics. As you point out, the Russians are paranoid for good reason. Neither the USA nor Norway, nor any other European country lost 20,000,000 in World War II. We can hardly expect them to see these issues through our eyes. And somehow I think the tune would be very different if the Russians were installing their own early missile warning system in, say, the Bahamas and Mexico -- even if it were to protect against supposed rogue states (Venezuela?). NOTEI am not really criticising US behaviour here. What I am trying to do is cast light on events in Georgia, and the Russian perspective. Believe me, I hardly have any sympathy with the recent Russian military actions. Nor do I have any illusions about Russian "benevelonce" or about who is the bad guy here. I will, however, repeat my initial point: Mikheil Saakashvili is a very dangerous man. His military adventure in Souther Ossetia was designed to provoke, and he was the first aggressor. Saakashvili is playing with fire -- and NATO should be very wary, indeed. Fortunately so far, both NATO and the Bush Administration has shown the requisite wisdom, and abstained from playing Saakashvili�s game. So if anything, I am commending the USA. |
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RE: treaty - I included the part about the dissolution of the Soviet Union specifically, because that was the real question regarding the treaty. Remember that this was right after 9/11, where all sorts of things were discussed, including missile defense against rogue states.
Also, during the 1990's, there was real hope for partnering with Russia in a number of areas, including the military. I also think this type of saber rattling is unnecessary and a bit troubling. It doesn't take much to push these things too far, and a resurgent Russia doesn't feel the need to back down too quickly. |
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Dick Morris's take on the Russia-Georgia conflict:
http://www.dickmorris.com/blog...rgia-the-real-story/
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Good pieces by VDH and Morris, AMH. I had cited one above by Krauthammer which made similar points. Good to see that the Bush admin. is getting some degree of credit for initiating a significant, but restrained response.
HP noted: I will, however, repeat my initial point: Mikheil Saakashvili is a very dangerous man. His military adventure in Souther Ossetia was designed to provoke, and he was the first aggressor. Saakashvili is playing with fire -- and NATO should be very wary, indeed. Why do you say he's a dangerous man? You said the same thing elsewhere about France's President Sarkozky, who's been instrumental in trying to negotiate a cease fire between Russia and Georgia. Saakashvili was elected President of Georgia and can presumably lose the next election of the Georgians don't want him. He's made efforts to get along with Russia, so it's not as though he's been "asking for it." BTW, does anyone really know how this "latest" got started. Putin accused Georgia of conducting genocide operations against S. Ossetia (this has been refuted by a number of agencies) while the world was watching the Olympics, and used this as a pretext for sending in the troops. However: - http://www.thenational.ae/arti...NG/219177610/-1/NEWS This "pretext" to act. . . who instigated it? What role did Russia play in S. Ossetia to agitate the Georgians? And whatever the initial situation, why would Russia move beyond the area of conflict deep into Georgia? I think the articles posted by AMH above provide good insight into this. |
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| <HeartPrayer>
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Why Saakashvili is a dangerous man
--------------------------------------------- I have no doubt that a contingent plan of Russian intervention in Southern Ossetia, with advances into Georgia, was drawn up months in advance. (I am sure that there are contingent plans for Western action against Iran as well. That is the job of military planners! And, NO, I am not equating the two.) Let there be no illusions about Russian benevolence. I certainly have none. It�s obvious they were waiting for an excuse! Mikheil Saakashvili is a dangerous man because he gambled and gave them precisely the excuse they. needed. There would have been no Russian incursion if Saakashvili had not ordered Georgian military into the capital of this autonomous province, killing Russians and Southern Ossetians in the process. Moreover, form a Western perspective as well as a Russian one, Saakashvili should be considered a dangerous man because he tried to draw NATO, and the USA in particular, into the conflict -- thus risking a very dangerous escalation. The Bush Administration and NATO have wisely desisted from from becoming entangled in this game, as I mentioned above. |
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