The Divine preaching of Holy Jesus is the top most Gospel in the world and touches the climax of the truth. For example Holy Krishna says in Gita that one should withdraw himself from the family bonds slowly like a tortoise withdrawing its limbs (Kurmo ngaaneeva). The tradition of Datta is to cut the family bonds by the Sword of Knowledge as per Gita (Jnanaasi natmanah).

But Holy Jesus says that one should hate these family bonds to become His disciple. Cutting the bond is Zero. Existing in the bond is Plus and hating the bond is Minus. Zero is near to Plus and Minus is very far. So if you cut the bond it may form again. But if you hate the bond the bond will never be formed so that the bond with the Lord alone is eternal.

See the preaching of Lord Jesus with impartial attitude and without conservatism. After all a diamond is diamond whether it is foreign diamond or Indian diamond. Thus Holy Jesus is the king of all the divine preachers. He is like the Sun from whom these divine sentences radiate like rays.

Holy Bible speaks about the ever-lasting fire and that the souls have no rebirth. Hindu scriptures say that the soul has rebirth. Both these can be convinced and co-related. The condemned souls enter the everlasting fire, which means that these souls take the births as animals, birds, worms etc, which are like the fire due to the continuous agony. The word �everlasting� means that once the soul enters into the cycle of these births the soul will never come back to the human birth. The rebirth as a human being as told in the Hindu scriptures can be again co-related with the Holy Bible.

Holy Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is extended into this world. The meaning of this is that whenever God comes in human form to stay with us (Immanuel), the disciples of the Lord will be staying in this divine Kingdom on the throwns equally with the Lord. This means the servants of the Lord will take rebirth as human beings and will be preaching here and they will be respected like God.

For Ex: The Holy Pope is given the status of God. The Holy Pope and other such top most Bishops and pious Fathers who are indulged in the propagation of the knowledge will get the status of God here itself in this world. Thus, the inner sense is the same in all the scriptures, which is spoken in different ways. The ways are different but the real essence is the same.

The aim of human life is to achieve the grace that is the love of God. Even if you earn more money you are not carrying it after death. Very little money is sufficient to eat and drink which the animals and the birds are also doing even without money. If the aim of the money is only eating, drinking and enjoying, you will be born as animal or bird or worm in the next birth.

If your file is opened in the upper world you will not get definitely the human birth. When you serve the Lord in this world when He comes in the human form then only you can get human birth without any enquiry in order to serve the Lord when the Lord reincarnates. You must recognize the Lord by His knowledge, because Veda says that knowledge is Brahman.

Only miracles are not the signs since demons also performed miracles. Gita says that the Lord comes down in human form (Maanusheem tanu masritam). Gita also says that it is very difficult to worship formless (Avyaktahi). Gita also says that if one worships the inert statue, he will be born as a stone (Bhutejya yanti Bhutani).

So you must serve the Lord by doing practical service which consists of 1) Sacrifice of work 2) Sacrifice of fruit of work (money), which is also a form of work. The Sacrifice must be to the full extent. When a beggar gives one rupee that is greater than one lakh given by a multi lakhier because the beggar has sacrificed what ever he possessed. Holy Jesus appreciated one old lady who donated whatever she possessed, as the highest divine soul.

quote:

Holy Jesus says that one should hate these family bonds to become His disciple.

This is a very strong statement to make and I find it difficult to reconcile this with further instructions to love one another. However, understanding it as hatred of bonds makes it easier. This may have been a specific instruction given at a specific historical time to a specific group - His disciples.
Christians today are (usually) not expected to leave their families to follow Christ however. Some are called, for example to the monastic tradition, but for most following Christ is something done in the context of family relationships and demands.

quote:

The Holy Pope is given the status of God.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. The Pope is understood to be divinely inspired and therefore infallible in the Roman Catholic faith. He is not worshipped or seen as God. This would be (is) regarded as idolatry - a very serious sin in this particular religion.

quote:

The condemned souls enter the everlasting fire, which means that these souls take the births as animals, birds, worms etc, which are like the fire due to the continuous agony.

Whilst many may accept and believe this, they are unlikely to be Christian or Bible believing. If Jesus meant us to believe and understand this, then he would have taught it. And didn't. This is from a Christian apologetics site regarding reincarnation:

quote:

Heb. 9:27 it says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment." This verse alone shows that reincarnation is not true.
Also, reincarnation negates the necessity of the Cross because reincarnation teaches you can have different lives in which to try and "get it right."
The purpose of reincarnation is to help you develop perfect karma by which you might then achieve a union with the divine consciousness after you have learned whatever it is you are supposed to learn. The problem is that each person had a first incarnation. That means that each person then had perfect Karma since he had no previous life and had done nothing wrong. Therefore, if he had perfect Karma and didn't learn or do what he was supposed to in his first life, then what makes him think that after hundreds of incarnations with accumulated bad karma that he will be able to achieve the perfect state of union with the divine consciousness that reincarnation moves him toward?

I am interested in the idea of religions having beliefs that overlap, and of each culture having a different tradition of understanding and worshipping the divine. However, its important that we try not to misrepresent any religion. As someone brought up as a Christian I do not know that much about the Hindu faith - although possibly a little more than the average person (?). I would not therefore try telling a Hindu what their faith teaches - I might share some of my understanding to find out if it is accurate. Of course, I do not know anything about you or your heritage, so please accept my comments as a sharing of understanding.
Peace
FrancesB

It seems this type of thinking comes from attempts at unifying all the faiths. As noble as that may seem I think it distorts the individual meaning of all the relevant religions involved.

I think it is interesting when two faiths share a common theme at certain points in their teachings; only when it is legitimate within its context of meaning, and not molded to fit the ideas of the other.

quote:

As noble as that may seem I think it distorts the individual meaning of all the relevant religions involved.

Of course. As a Christian I beleive Jesus statment that:

quote:

�I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6).

That is my faith. I have a personal and real relationship with Jesus in the light of that statement.

However, that doesn't mean that I don't respect other faiths, or believe that they have something to offer. Its simply not what I believe as a Christian.

There is also a 'mealy mouthed' aspect to statements that all faiths are equal - because clearly each one believes that it is right - to the exclusion of any other. The Bible is full of it, but we don't (often) bring that out because it would (does) offend. Muslims and Roman Catholics both teach that 'non believers' go to Hell. I prefer to leave those judgements to God. But I behave in a way that is consistent with my Christian faith

Some people believe that Buddha, Krishna, Christ etc. etc. are different incarnates of God. I believe that is what the poster who started this thread is implying. That they are all the same manifestation of the Avatar in their respective periods in history.

Also some people believe in re-incarnation even some Christians. Some groups believe Christ is the reincarnate of Adam correcting his original sin.

What is your opinion on the matter?

I don't believe in reincarnation. The Bible and Christian teachings seem pretty clear on that matter. The basic Anglo-Catholic creed is what I believe: that Jesus is the Son of God, He was incarnated through Mary, died on the cross and was resurrected and will come again to judge us. I have read about and studied many other Christian and Non Christian faiths. I am an ex-Buddhist, and had a period of agnosticism at university. The Anglo-Catholic faith is the only one that 'feels right'to me - and I consider that to be gift of the Holy Spirit - i.e. not entirely rational or fully explicable. I honestly think that Jesus offers hope and a way to the divine that is not available in many other faiths. For example, He teaches that it is faith, not works that save us. If it was works, then I have no hope as a mere human being!
Regarding the business of Adam, I don't see the need for speculation -Jesus was clear in what He said about Himself and His identity.
Those of course are my opinions, and I respect other opinions as equally objectively valid - in that there's no more empirical evidence for my faith than for any other faith. However subjectively I know what my faith leads me to believe. And as I said before - I don't think people are here to judge one other. That's not our job! We've been told to love one another and that involves understanding. Understanding has to be accurate though.

dattaswami,

Welcome! Thank you for sharing your faith with us.

Ramana Maharshi said that "Be still and know that I am God" and "I am that I am" were the only important
quotations from the bible.

Nevertheless, the bible and Jesus are very compelling. Gandhi had a picture of Jesus right there on his alter. If Jesus' children that Gandhi met in South Africa had not been so bigoted, he might have been more impressed and become Christian himself. This was most unfortunate.

Yogananda and his teacher Sri Yukteswar were very fond of the Christian scriptures, and Yogananda quoted them frequently and liberally in his writings.

I am convinced that Christ draws men to himself by the Holy Spirit.

In any case, Jesus said that he came for the sinner and not for the righteous. Perhaps you will be fine as you are. Although I am not a universalist, I have become an inclusivist.

Perhaps we are not so far from the Kingdom?

with respect and namaste,

mm <*))))><

Folks, unless there is some political vein not yet discussed here, I'll probably move this thread to "Shalom Place Lounge."

Any objections? I don't want to stifle any discussion, but we want newcomers to see where the topic boundaries are.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
[qb] Also some people believe in re-incarnation even some Christians. Some groups believe Christ is the reincarnate of Adam correcting his original sin.What is your opinion on the matter? [/qb]

Rebirth-Christanity-Islam-Hinduism

Only one Lord created this entire universe. He should have told the same knowledge everywhere in the world. The contradiction is only due to misunderstanding. In Hinduism also Sankara says that again human birth is almost impossible (Jantunaam Nara Janma Durlabhamidam).

Sankara was the incarnation of Siva and so what He told is also authoritative. Even Gita says that the soul comes back to this world but does not say that the soul gets again the human birth (Ksheene Punye Martyalokam Visanti).

In the second chapter, Gita speaks about rebirth but not about the human rebirth. Islam and Christianity say that the human birth is given only as a single chance. After this the final judgement is given.

The soul either goes to the Lord or goes to the hell permanently. In Gita also there are two ways for the soul. Either the soul goes to the Lord and does not return back or the soul returns back to the world (Abrahma Bhuvanath, Yat Gatva).

According to Gita, if the soul does not go to the Lord (Brahmaloka), it returns back after enjoying the fruits of incomplete spiritual effort. Therefore in this human birth, if the spiritual effort is completed, the soul goes to the Brahmaloka permanently.

If the spiritual effort is incomplete the soul may go up to any world below Brahmaloka, it will return back to this earth after enjoying the fruits of its incomplete spiritual effort. The soul may go up to the sixth world, it cannot go to the Brahmaloka, which is the seventh world by doing the remaining spiritual effort in the sixth world.

The reason is once the soul leaves this earth all the upper worlds are only Bhogalokas i.e., the worlds in which the soul can enjoy the fruits, but cannot do any work (Karma).

Therefore the soul has to return back to the earth. The soul will not get again another chance of human birth because once it is failed it can never succeed. Therefore the soul comes to the earth and falls into the cycle of animals and birds only. When the soul is trapped in this cycle of animal births, it is treated as a permanent hell.

If the soul goes to Brahmaloka it always accompanies the Lord either in Brahmaloka or may come back to the earth along with the Lord who takes the human incarnation. In such case the soul is born as a divine servant of the Lord. Such soul will not take rebirth in the cycle of animals. Thus for the divine soul also there is no such rebirth. In this way Hinduism, Islam and Christianity are correlated as one concept preached by the one Lord.

Christians and Muslims are putting up sincere spiritual effort because there is a threat that this human life is the only chance. There is no reexamination according to these religions. This human birth is the only one examination and the soul either passes or fails and will not be allowed for any reexamination. But in Hinduism such threat is not there.

People have taken a lenient view on the spiritual life because they think that the human rebirths are possible and so they can put up the spiritual effort slowly in the future human births. The Lord cannot say different theories to different people. The rule must be same for all the human beings of the world. Therefore whatever the Lord told in Christianity and Islam also told the same in Hinduism. Hindus misunderstood the concept. Therefore what ever may be the religion, every human being should think �Now or Never�.

The human rebirth is only for Yoga Bhrashta i.e., the soul, which has reached Brahmaloka and fell due to some slip. Such a soul is suspended from Brahmaloka and comes down to the earth and takes rebirth as a human being only. You have passed the P.G. Degree and obtained the post of the lecturer. But you were suspended for a month due to some mistake. You will be re-appointed.

Similarly the Yoga Bhrashta will be born as a human being for some time and will come back to Brahmaloka. The case of incomplete spiritual effort is different from Yoga Bhrashta. The incomplete spiritual person is like a B.A. Degree holder who never achieved the lecturer post. You cannot argue that you can be appointed as a seventy five percent lecturer since you reached seventy five percent of the total educational period (from school to P.G.Degree is hundred percent) by getting a B.A. Degree.

Thus there is no partial achievement by partial spiritual effort. The grace of the Lord is either hundred percent or zero. If it is hundred percent you are reaching Brahmaloka. If it is Zero percent you are falling back to the earth in the cycle of animals and birds. There is no third way in between these two. When this truth is revealed, only one in thousands will try to put the real spiritual effort as said in Gita (Manushyaanaam Sahasreshu). By this Hindus will become alert in spiritual effort like Christians and Muslims.

At the Lotus feet of Shri DattaSwami

www.universal-spirituality.org
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org
Universal spirituality for world peace

quote:

Originally posted by Eric:
[qb] Some people believe that Buddha, Krishna, Christ etc. etc. are different incarnates of God. I believe that is what the poster who started this thread is implying. That they are all the same manifestation of the Avatar in their respective periods in history.[/qb]

Only one God created this world

Hindus say that Brahman is the creator, Muslims say
That Allah is creator, Christians say that the creator is
Jehovah, all say that the creation is this entire world.
If Hindus say that Brahman created India, and if
Muslims say that Allah created Arabian countries and
If Christians say that Jehovah created the western countries,
The problem is solved, there can be three Gods together,
Who have created the three parts of the earth separately.

But this is not so, each religion says that their God only
Created the entire world, unfortunately there is one world!
One world only! Come on, all of you sit together here
And give me the final conclusion after debate, otherwise,
The scientists are laughing on all of you! Shame to all!

They criticize that these religions do not have even
The basic logic, which is the fundamental common sense.
Because of you, the greatest God is also mocked by them
They say that the religions are rigid conservatisms!
Even a small boy is putting this question to all of you.

Stop all your discourses and first answer this question.
If you want to say that God created the entire world,
You have to accept that there is one God only always
And that His names are all the above three names.

We see in the world a single person having three names.
If there is one God, He only created this entire world.
All the human beings are invariably His children only.
No Father is partial to a single child and therefore
He must have preached the same knowledge to all
In different languages and in different methodologies
To different levels, this is Universal Spirituality.

At the Lotus feet of Shri DattaSwami

www.universal-spirituality.org
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org
Universal spirituality for world peace

quote:

Originally posted by FrancesB:
[qb] [QUOTE] ..........) not expected to leave their families to follow Christ however. Some are called, for ............ [/qb]

The Only Love � Gita -Bible Comparision

Luke�14:26 to 27 [Mathew: - 11:34 to 38]

�If any one comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple��.

The knowledge is compared to a sword. Bhagavatgita says �Chhitva Jnanasinatmanah�. This means that the ignorance should be cut by the knowledge, which is like a sword. The bonds with wife or husband and children are due to ignorance. Such bonds should break when the Lord in human form competes with them to conduct His test. Lord comes in human form in every human generation to preach and give His direct presence.

If the Lord comes in only one human generation, God becomes partial to that human generation because other human generations are not blessed with such opportunity. To see, to touch, to talk and to live with the human incarnation, He comes down as per the prayers of the devotees. The Lord comes to preach and so He will not enter the statues or animals or birds. Veda says �Na tasya pratima asti�� which means that God will not enter the inert statues.

Gita says �Manusheem tanu masritam� which means that God enters the human body only because the main purpose is to preach the human beings. Gita strongly says that he who worships the inert statues will be born as an inert stone (�Bhootani yanti�). The Christians should be commended on this point who are worshipping the Holy Jesus only, who is the most powerful human incarnation of God.

Veda says �Na tat samah� which means that nobody and nothing should be equal to the Lord in human incarnation. One should leave everything and everybody for the sake of the Lord in human form. Only the bond with a new human being can break the bond with the human beings. Such new human being must be very powerful who can be only God in human form.

A new bond existing with formless God or statues cannot break the human bonds. Only the bond with another living being can cut the bond with the living beings. The bond with formless God is impossible. The bond with inert statue has no use. The above statements of Holy Jesus indicate that one should cut the bonds with his family and with the wealth. In Hindu religion also it is said that God (Datta) cuts all the bonds of family and wealth (�Dattam Chinnam�).

Even the bond with the body should be cut for the sake of the God. Gita says the same thing as �Mat Gata Pranah�. Holy Jesus says that one has to carry his own cross (death) for the sake of the Lord. This means that one has to invite his own death with his own hands for the sake of God. Holy Jesus did like this as an ideal example for others. This means that you have to cut your bonds not only with your family and wealth but also with your life if necessary.

Hanuman, a top devotee, tore his heart with his own nails for the sake of the Lord and was blessed by the Lord to be immortal. So when the devotee sacrifices his life, his life gets protected forever. The essence of this gospel is that the love is proved only by the practical sacrifice. Veda says �Dhanena Tyage nyke�� which means that sacrifice of money proves the real love.

Money is the fruit of the work. So money is another form of work. If it is inconvenient to sacrifice the money, at least they should sacrifice the other form of money, which is work for the sake of God. Depending on the money all the family members are attached to you. If money is not there all the family will leave you. You are also giving the money to your family only.

Therefore if the bond with money is cut and if the money is sacrificed to God, the family bonds are considered as vanished, even though the family exists externally. The work of God in human form is the propagation of His divine gospel. For doing such divine work the family also stands as an obstacle because most of your energy is diverted for the family only. Therefore you do not have any energy to work for the sake of Lord.

Hence Holy Jesus wants His disciples to leave their families for the sake of God. The propagation work needs both money and work. Generally every body works to maintain his family. In the name of maintenance, several luxuries are introduced, which look like essential needs and thus there is no end for your work to earn the money for the sake of your body and your family.

Your blindness increases and you will be putting more and more efforts to work and earn money for the sake of the family bonds. In such a case you can never even see the human form of God. At least you should remove your blindness by the divine knowledge if not the actual bonds. People of very high devotion only can cut the actual bonds. You are giving money to your family but you are giving words to God by prayers and you are giving mind to God through meditation.

You are giving love to your family through your work and money, you are calling the sacrifice of words and sacrifice of mind as love to God and you are fooling the God. Your real love is only with your family and not with the God. Holy Jesus tests your real love to God by these statements. The Christian Pope and fathers and the Hindu Acharya and saints left their families and concentrated completely on the work of God. Such pious souls can only be representatives of God in this world.

At the Lotus feet of Shri DattaSwami

www.universal-spirituality.org
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org
Universal spirituality for world peace

quote:

Originally posted by FrancesB:
[qb] [QUOTE] Holy ..........sharing of understanding.[/qb]

Family Bond-Responsibility To Family-Bond With God

Gita says �Eka Bhakthih Vishishyate� which means that the person having only one bond with the Lord alone is liberated. The liberation itself means destruction of all the bonds in this world. Without full liberation, one cannot have a strong bond with the Lord. Unless one is completely relieved from the world, one cannot join God. The joining report in the new institution is not possible without complete relief from the previous institution.

You cannot partially join the new institution. It cannot be a side employment. Ofcourse such partial bond can be treated as the intermediate stage and is better than no bond. But the aim should not be such partial bond. If you aim at 100 marks, you may get 40 marks and pass. But if you aim at 40 marks only, you will fail. Therefore, let the aim be total liberation from the world and single bond with the God.

The bond consists of three parts. The service in terms of sacrifice of work and fruit of work comprises ninety-nine paise. Love with mind consists of 2/3rd paise. Remembering through words consists of 1/3rd paise. If you take the case of Sankara, he has donated the whole rupee to the Lord. His love for his mother, words to praise mother and service to mother are diverted towards the Lord. He left his mother for the sake of the Lord. He has donated all the one hundred paise to the Lord. He is the top most beloved of the Lord.

He should be our aim. In the beginning stage you cannot divert your work, which is called duty and mental attachment, which is called love to the Lord. At least make a humble beginning by donating the words to the Lord. Go on reading spiritual books and go on chanting his songs. By this you have donated 1/3rd paise to the Lord. Remember that you cannot purchase any item from any shop with 1/3rd paise. Therefore, do not aspire any thing in return from the Lord, for this 1/3rd paise. In the next stage you try to divert your mind towards the Lord, which is 2/3rd paise.

Do your duties to your family members, but without mental attachment. Such mental detachment has several added advantages. If one is mentally detached from the family members, he will not be hurt if they insult him in future. He will not be disturbed when their behaviour is not correct. He will not suffer if death attacks them. Such mental detachment brings full peace and balance of mind. Due to this he will be always energetic with good health. Therefore such mental detachment is needed even for an atheist.

The detached mind cannot keep silent because it is habituated to the attachment. Therefore, attach the mind to the Lord. Such attachment will always give infinite bliss in the life. When you are successful in attaching the mind to the Lord, you are called as devotee. But a devotee can be disturbed. The devotion becomes firm if his intelligence takes a firm decision through knowledge. Therefore, Knowledge gives firm decision to the intelligence (Buddhi) and this makes the devotion of mind (Manas) to be firm. Therefore, Gita started with Buddhi Yoga or Jnana Yoga in the second chapter.

When the mind is fixed on the Lord with the help of the knowledge of the intelligence, the work will naturally change and will follow the mind. The mind is like the king. The words are like his ministers. The intelligence is like his preacher or Guru. The work is like his army. Therefore, with the help of the words the mind should be diverted to the Lord and it is fixed with the help of the intelligence. The words divert the mind, whereas the intelligence fixes the mind. Therefore, when you have donated words and mind to the Lord and when you are strengthened by the spiritual knowledge your duties and responsibilities, which form the work, will naturally be diverted towards the Lord. The work is always inert item and is controlled by the mind and intelligence.

As w.c. noted, this is not a religious discussion.

As some of you noted, dattaswami is posting from a syncretistic, Hinduish perspective. That's fine, just so long as we can maintain a respectful spirit of dialogue.

Moving thread to Christian morality and theology forum.